Golden years and modern

[Mrpinkerton]

Hey there..ive been reading alot of stuff on this forum and it seems as most of you are against modern cartoons...id like to know why..i watch all kinds of cartoons..old and new..and to me it seems like a few of you wont even give newer shows a chanche just because theyre "new" while being angry at how other people wont give old shows a chanche just because theyre "old"..i know theres alot of crappy cartoons out there today..but there are also alot of good ones and i enjoy both old and new cartoons...i have around 15 maybe more newer stuff from the 90s and today that im a fan of..and also alot from the golden years..so if you think that modern cartoons are worse/better than old ones..i would like to know why?

[Cartman]

Actually a lot of us here at GAC do enjoy some modern cartoons. I guess the reason why we seem to be not too fond of a lot of them is that the people who work on them don't seem to put as much heart and soul into making them as those who worked on Golden Age cartoons. Particularly in the 1980's, there were a lot of preachy cartoons that had no artistic merit except to keep the kids' attention for a short time. These cartoons (e.g. Care Bears, Pound Puppies, etc.) were produced with lessons to be learned explicitly while they could have sent subtle messages about things like friendship, the environment, etc. The Goofy Gophers cartoon LUMBER JERKS did a good job of this (of course the people who worked on this cartoon did not make it primarily for kids, but for themselves). These 80's cartoons were also made as marketing tools to sell the toys on which they were based.

In the late 80's/early 90's, we had a revival of cartoons that we call the "Silver Age." These would be cartoons like Simpsons, Tiny Toons, South Park, Animaniacs, etc. These shows were very well done and you can definitely see the heart and soul put into these cartoons.

[Tom Stathes]

While I can only speak for myself, I personally find classic animation to have a more "genuine" nature to it, there is a greater purity. While in terms of comedy I do in fact enjoy some new animation, in general you cannot compare the quality to what was being done in the 30s and 40s... like anything else, "they don't make them like they used to."
The majority of today's cartoons I find are too crude (in both humor and animation) or otherwise uninspiring or dumbifying to its audience.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

The biggest difference is the animation itself. In the old cartoons it's more fluid, livier, funnier; more believable, expressive and exaggerated. It was also more individualistic, as each artist had a certain way of drawing and animating. The directors were allowed more creative freedom back then, and could rightly be called auteurs. The old cartoons just plain took advantage of their medium. They didn't rely on dialog and they didn't try to imitate live action films. That just doesn't happen today. How could it when most animation for American cartoons is made in Korea?

Take The Simpsons for example. The show is funny, but the animation is dull, stiff and lifeless. The characters have no real weight and they all move the same, whether they're supposed to be a lazy fat man or a small child. The show relies heavily on dialog for most of its humor.

CGI films have "full" animation, but most of it is cold and sterile in feeling. The animators don't have much control over how the characters will look in a particular frame, since they are working with virtual puppets. Can anyone spot the work of individual animators in most of these features? Obviously there are some exceptions, like The Incredibles and Ratatouille, where the animation is much better. Most CGI films look ugly too, with too much emphasis on details like pores and hair.

The closest modern cartoons have come to the golden age is shows like Ren & Stimpy and Spongebob Squarepants. But those shows still struggled against the limitations modern production methods have placed in their way.

The modern animated cartoons I do like are:
Who Framed Roger Rabbit
The Family Dog episode of the Amazing Stories series
The Tracey Ullman Simpsons interstitial shorts
Ren & Stimpy
Spongebob Squarepants
Powerpuff Girls
Wallace and Gromit
Pixar films
Disney's Aladdin
The Nightmare Before Christmas and The Corpse Bride

[Tom Stathes]

The closest modern cartoons have come to the golden age is shows like Ren & Stimpy and Spongebob Squarepants.

Perhaps as far as creativity is concerned, yes....though at the same time their humor is in the gutter whereas (ironic as it may sound) Warner Bros. humor had some more complexity and intellectualism to it IMHO.


The modern animated cartoons I do like are:
Wallace and Gromit
The Nightmare Before Christmas
Downright creative and fantastic stuff. As silent as I am about it, I'm a huge clay animation fan and absolutely love Wallace & Gromit.

[Mrpinkerton]

Guess i'll also add a few modern toons that i love..and i kinda agree on the animation part...there are still some that are beautifuly drawn..like batman:tas(the only non comedy animation that im realy into) that follow the producer bruce timms artwork...the anymation is great and i love the setting..characters..and just about everything...i also like the cel animation style of Ed Edd n Eddy(altough now painted digitaly) ..but i think the humor and heart still remain in some series...and stuff like Ed EDD n Eddy,The grim adventures of billy and mandy,Dexters laboratory,Johnny bravo and Animaniacs make me laugh alot

[Bugsy-Kun]

I'm myself a furry Artist since 2 years, (My DA account (http://hedgehog-rover.deviantart.com/)) and yet i share some opinions about old ad modern cartoons. I think some problems why peoples don't like the modern shows is caused by some humors used in the shows and especially the Anime style. Aimed at a kids and teen audience, they give sharing opinions what they are good and what they don't.

Like Cartman said, the vast majority of the classic cartoons was produced by a adult audience. (Like the riské shorts of early 30's and the Famous cartoons era) It's normal that they had racist references and some violences scenes but it was the only way for artists and creators to express their grattitude and their ways to think of the world overall. And the bests are the ones who had a reflexion about their real lifes and their world. Unfortunately and we talk rarely, the world was much influenced by the characters on TV and movies (Like The Matrix) than their own lifes. It's a problem of society nowadays.

But at last, they had still peoples who created any beautiful characters based in their real lifes and environnements like the Pixar Movies who acclaimed for their originality and they progress year after year. Of course, i'm just a minor artist but i know what they good and what they don't. ;)

[fan4life]

While I can only speak for myself, I personally find classic animation to have a more "genuine" nature to it, there is a greater purity. While in terms of comedy I do in fact enjoy some new animation, in general you cannot compare the quality to what was being done in the 30s and 40s... like anything else, "they don't make them like they used to."
The majority of today's cartoons I find are too crude (in both humor and animation) or otherwise uninspiring or dumbifying to its audience.

Simply put, the creators of these toons were craftsmen and artists who cared about their work-and it showed on the screen. I'm not saying that this kind of commitment isn't to be found in today's offerings, but that kind of quality of that age does tend to set the standard.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Perhaps as far as creativity is concerned, yes....though at the same time their humor is in the gutter whereas (ironic as it may sound) Warner Bros. humor had some more complexity and intellectualism to it IMHO.
I have a weak stomach for the "gross out" humor myself, but I'm sure for their day some of the Warner cartoons were considered to be in questionable taste. I think in certain episodes of Ren & Stimpy the humor does approach complexity, like in Sven Hoek or Man's Best Friend. It's just more along the lines of plumping Ren's deep psychosis.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Simply put, the creators of these toons were craftsmen and artists who cared about their work-and it showed on the screen. I'm not saying that this kind of commitment isn't to be found in today's offerings, but that kind of quality of that age does tend to set the standard.
There are lots of artists today capable of that kind of commitment and care, it's just the system that the animation industry is today doesn't support or allow for it. The artists of the golden age were left alone, for the most part, from meddling studio execs. That's not the case today, where every producer and exec thinks they are a creative genius, and they need to "fix" every shows and feature that comes their way. Plus, most studios don't want to spend the money needed to produce great animation.

[Leviathan]

How could it when most animation for American cartoons is made in Korea?
.

That's one hindrance of TV cartoons, sure, but it's not the only one. For example, compare the Spumco and Games Ren and Stimpy episodes animated by Rough Draft. niether have quite the individualism that would occur if both were animated by the artists here, but animation the former is much more expressive and better than that in the later.

Even more damingly, compare Butch Hartman's and Seth Macfarlane's What-a-Cartoon shorts to Family Guy and the Fairly OddParents. Mostly Korean-animated, and while the former cartoons aren't quite up to Ren and Stimpy-par the animation is still livelier and more expressive than the latter (because for those shows Hartman and MacFarlane followed Matt Groening's lead and put the artists in shackles, resulting in the most stagnant modern aniation broadcast on TV).

[J. J. Hunsecker]

That's one hindrance of TV cartoons, sure, but it's not the only one. For example, compare the Spumco and Games Ren and Stimpy episodes animated by Rough Draft. niether have quite the individualism that would occur if both were animated by the artists here, but animation the former is much more expressive and better than that in the later.
The best episodes of Ren & Stimpy were animated in Canada by Carbunkle Studios, which is run by Bob Jaques and Kelly Armstrong. I don't know if you recall, but the earlier episodes or R&S animated in Korea had all kinds of technical mistakes, like when Ren's eyelids were painted black in Stimpy's Big Day. (Korean studios were always hired because they worked fast and cheap, and technical mistakes, sloppy drawing and poor animation were part of the bargain.)

The animation from Korea improved in later seasons, thanks in part to Greg Vanzo creating and running Rought Draft Studios in Korea. (Rough Draft was the studio chosen for the Games episodes of Ren & Stimpy.)

[fan4life]

There are lots of artists today capable of that kind of commitment and care, it's just the system that the animation industry is today doesn't support or allow for it. The artists of the golden age were left alone, for the most part, from meddling studio execs. That's not the case today, where every producer and exec thinks they are a creative genius, and they need to "fix" every shows and feature that comes their way. Plus, most studios don't want to spend the money needed to produce great animation.

As long as the money these craftsmen are offered doesn't water down that committment, no harm no foul. At the same time, I think that the less the studio execs and others will regulate and meddle in the final product, the better the cartoon.

[John Pannozzi]

The best episodes of Ren & Stimpy were animated in Canada by Carbunkle Studios, which is run by Bob Jaques and Kelly Armstrong. I don't know if you recall, but the earlier episodes or R&S animated in Korea had all kinds of technical mistakes, like when Ren's eyelids were painted black in Stimpy's Big Day. (Korean studios were always hired because they worked fast and cheap, and technical mistakes, sloppy drawing and poor animation were part of the bargain.)

The animation from Korea improved in later seasons, thanks in part to Greg Vanzo creating and running Rought Draft Studios in Korea. (Rough Draft was the studio chosen for the Games episodes of Ren & Stimpy.)

FYI, Rough Draft was formed after the first season of Ren & Stimpy.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

FYI, Rough Draft was formed after the first season of Ren & Stimpy.
But did they actually work on any of the Spumco episodes in the second seaseon? I was under the impression that the first cartoons they animated on were the one started at Spumco in the outline/storyboard and/or voice recording phase, but finished by Games during production. Therefore, Rough Draft was technically working with Games for Nickelodeon. I'm not an expert on Ren & Stimpy's history, so I admit I could be wrong on this. I just assumed that Rough Draft first worked on "A Yard Too Far" which was completed by Games.

[Leviathan]

Actually, Spumco began subcontracting to Rough Draft starting in late-1991, and is credited for about half of Season 2 (Including Big Baby Scam, Stimpy's Fan Club, Powdered Toast Man, and at least parts of Rubber Nipple Salesmen Sven Hoek)



Oh and J.J., about the off-modelness of a Korena-animated Ren and Stimpy episode, off-model scenes were fairly common in cartoons of the late 80's and early 90's (even the Simpsons had animation problems with "Some Enchanted Evening", although they had the political clout to send the episode back for extensive retake work).


Since that was the period when American cartoons were really starting to be sent overseas to be animated in increased numbers, and a lot of international animation houses (particlarly in places like Korea) were relatively new, off-model scenes were probably natural hiccups of the transition of TV cartoon production

[Mr. Semaj]

Quality would be the main factor between classic and modern animation. With classic animation, even the weakest ones had some kind of quality to them. With modern animation, the weakest ones, be they a poor concept (Braceface), a good concept with poor development (The Wild Thornberrys), or a good concept, good development, but unnecessary re-tooling down the road (Dexter's Lab, Fairly OddParents), the lack of quality is more susceptible.

The present scenario is that there are very few genuinely good modern cartoons that are still on the air (Simpsons, SpongeBob, South Park). The rest, mostly from the 90's have either become obscured to the DVD market (Classic Ren & Stimpy), bootleg downloads (Daria, Duckman), or aren't available at all (AAAHH!!! Real Monsters). The rest of the cartoons that are available are either a poor re-tooling of once good programs (Family Guy), potentially good shows with poor development (Camp Lazlo) or shows with no creative merit whatsoever (Nickelodeon's more recent Nicktoons). There seems to be a subliminal effort to take the fun out of animation entirely.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Kevin,

The outsourcing to Korea started sometime in the 70's, if I'm not mistaken.

Big Baby Scam and Stimpy's Fan Club were 2 of the shows that were taken over from Spumco by Games. I'm not sure of the others, though. I do know that Sven Hoek was sent to Carbunkle, but some scenes could have been sent to Rough Draft as well. (Sven Hoek was edited by Games or Nickelodeon. The title card with the accordianist was added after the firing of Spumco.)

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Oh and J.J., about the off-modelness of a Korena-animated Ren and Stimpy episode, off-model scenes were fairly common in cartoons of the late 80's and early 90's (even the Simpsons had animation problems with "Some Enchanted Evening", although they had the political clout to send the episode back for extensive retake work).
The problems with "Some Enchanted Evening" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Some_Enchanted_Evening_(The_Simpsons_episode)) had been blamed on director Kent Butterworth by the Simpson producers. The show was then taken over, and most of it redone, by director David Silverman. The animation that resulted from the layouts of the 2 directors was different in style and model.

[Speedy Boris]

Just to set the record straight on some Ren & Stimpy stuff in this thread:

All six Season 1 episodes were a co-production between four studios: Carbunkle, Lacewood Productions, Bon Art, and Fil-Cartoons.

Rough Draft didn't come along until season 2's "Rubber Nipple Salesman", which looked and moved far better than anything from season 1. And they actually animated the majority of season 2 episodes, even some that were fully Spumco (such as "Haunted House", "Mad Dog Hoek", "Rubber Nipple Salesman", "In the Army", and I believe "A Visit to Anthony").

The only season 2 episodes that Carbunkle worked on were:
-Ren's Toothache
-Sven Hoek
-Fake Dad
-The Royal Canadian Kilted Yaskmen
-Son of Stimpy
-Man's Best Friend

[Eugene the Jeep]

Beyond the fact that most modern cartoons aren't as well animated as old ones, there's perhaps the more fundamental problem that the general attitude towards making cartoons has changed. The best theatrical cartoons were showcases for visual creativity. Directors like Bob Clampett and Tex Avery encouraged their animators to express their unique gifts, instead of trying to look anonymous. The people who were in charge of making cartoons had great knowledge of the medium and tried to exploit it to their advantage.