The "daffy" ducks in What Price Porky

[Daffysleftfoot]

Okay, so I saw What Price Porky on the dailymotion today for the first time.

Has there ever been a debate on whether any of the ducks in that cartoon are Daffy Duck or not? It's not listed as a Daffy cartoon anywhere and yet there are two places that one could use to state that Daffy is present. 1. The duck general has Daffy's voice. 2. The duck disguised as the Easter Bunny exits the scene bouncing around shouting "WOO HOO WOO HOO"

I myself am rather torn as to whether any of the ducks in that cartoon are Daffy or not. If this hasn't been discussed before, the it should now. Let the debate begin.

:daffy:

[frootloops]

I'd assume that at least on of the ducks is Daffy. If you watch Porky's Duck Hunt, you'll notice there are more ducks there then just the one, Daffy. Maybe they were still toying with the idea of more then one "Daffy" Duck. I'd say the easter bunny duck is definitely Daffy. The same with the duck in Porky's Naughty Nephew.

[AcmeCoyote]

The ducks are very "daffy-esque" but are they actually Daffy? I would lean towards not. My guess is that they are ducks that hung out with Daffy in the local pond and picked up some of his mannerisms.

[Marty26]

It's debatable whether or not Porky's Duck Hunt was really Daffy's first cartoon. It's possible that the Daffy in Daffy Duck And Egghead was intended to be a completely different duck from any of the ducks in Porky's Duck Hunt. As for "What Price, Porky?", I too have always figured that at least one of those ducks was the evolving Daffy. And it's always somewhat confused me that it's never listed as a Daffy Duck cartoon (not even on IMDB).

[SEATTLECHEF]

Can the title card on this cartoon be trusted, or is this a case of the credits being assinged on a rotation as has been described? Also, does anyone know anything about the production schedule? I think it was released in 1938.

[Sogturtle]

Can the title card on this cartoon be trusted, or is this a case of the credits being assinged on a rotation as has been described? Also, does anyone know anything about the production schedule? I think it was released in 1938.

Seattlechef~

Simply stated, when Chuck (Charles) Jones animated FOR Bob Clampett he ALWAYS received first billing, the second animation credit listed (in this case Bob Cannon) DID rotate though... Jones received CONSTANT credit and top billing because he was not just animating but also drawing the "animation layouts" for Clampett. The production schedule at THAT point ran right at 6 months (even though this cartoon was made by the Ray Katz studio for Leon Schlesinger's studio). And yes it was released in 1938.

[Reluctantly adding this...;) When Jones received SOLO animation credit for Clampett it almost certainly indicates that he was functioning as a co-director, uh-oh don't want to set off any more firestorms!:p]

[SEATTLECHEF]

Thanks Tim,

I know that the attribution of particular animation to a particular animator is an imperfect, emerging, science/art, but does the work look to you like it was drawn by Jones and Cannon?

[Sogturtle]

Thanks Tim,

I know that the attribution of particular animation to a particular animator is an imperfect, emerging, science/art, but does the work look to you like it was drawn by Jones and Cannon?

Chris~

"What Price Porky" is the first cartoon where we can with say with full assurance that it is a 100% Clampett-directing outing. The "Katz" unit at that point really consisted of these known animators (Jones, Cannon, I. Ellis, John Carey and possibly Norm McCabe), though with Jones having to draw Clampett's animation layouts the amount of real Jones animation would almost certainly be cut down drastically and the other animators logically would have bigger workloads... But Jones' animation layouts would underlie every animator's work on it...

The 1938 photo taken of the "Katz" unit (taken evidently right after Jones left) shows all of the above named animators except for McCabe. [Funny, somehow I've ended up owning the original of that photo:) ].

[Jack G.]

Soggy, did Clampett ever do his own layouts?

[Thad]

Soggy, did Clampett ever do his own layouts?

No.

Clampett never did any layouts for his cartoons (sometimes 'energy sketches'). I don't think any Clampett layouts exist anymore, even in his own collection (which is odd, as he had the reputation as the studio packrat). He tended to rely on others for the look of his pictures.

As much as I love most of his cartoons, I've always suspected Clampett was more of an inspirational/crazed leader than an accomplished animator.

[Matthew Hunter]

In reply to Thad's comment, I think he's got a point. Not that Clampett wasn't a good artist in his own right, but look at the animators who worked on cartoons he directed. Most of them went on to become great directors in their own right, and were top-notch artists. To think that Chuck Jones, Robert McKimson, Norman McCabe, Vive Risto, Bill Melendez, and so many others animated for Clampett...if he'd never drawn a single doodle and simply guided THEM, he'd have come out with fine cartoons. Most of what I've heard about Bob Clampett's animators is that Clampett would give them a scene and leave them alone to do it...whereas other directors would feel compelled to supervise every walk cycle or whisker-twitch.

What a great set-up that must've been...some of the best (then future best) talents in animation given a story by a nutcase like Clampett and told "animate it", with little interference. Maybe he was a great director simply because he had great ideas and knew which tasks to assign to which people in order to realize the ideas. (And later take credit for anything that wasn't nailed down, but I digress...) :tweety:

[Thad]

Actually, Bill Melendez has gone as far as saying that he and the others directed their own animation in Clampett's cartoons!

The fact that Clampett really wasn't an animator might account for why he couldn't find work elsewhere after Warners.

[SEATTLECHEF]

In light of the fact that "What price Porky" is replete with gunfire, generals, trenches, corn bullets, tanks, military helmets, etc, would it be fair to say that Chuck Jones was animating an "army-themed" cartoon in the years 1937 and 1938?

[J Lee]

If you look at the early Clampett cartoons, there is a roundness and smoothness to the designs that most definitely is Jones' doing. Within about 2-3 cartoons after Jones left to take over Tashlin's unit, you began seeing layouts and character designs that were far more jagged and oddball, which fit Bob's general idea of what made a funny cartoon in 1939 (It's also worth noting that Clampett's biggest success came after he learned in the early 40s to use better looking designs and layous and stronger stories, and then distort those characters based on personality reactions. If you start out with a totally screwball-looking character its hard to Scribnerize him, because there isn't that much of a difference between the 'normal' and the 'emotional/agitated' designs).

[Sogturtle]

Soggy, did Clampett ever do his own layouts?

In light of the fact that "What price Porky" is replete with gunfire, generals, trenches, corn bullets, tanks, military helmets, etc, would it be fair to say that Chuck Jones was animating an "army-themed" cartoon in the years 1937 and 1938?

Masked Stinker, JLee, Matthew, Seattlechef/Chris, and the gang~

It's really hard to give an absolute, definitive answer as to whether Bob Clampett EVER-EVER drew his own animation layouts... We know for a fact that the vast bulk (if not all) of the COLOR cartoons he made feature animation layouts drawn by Tom McKimson (a KNOWN exception being "Coal Black..." with its animation layouts being by Rod Scribner). And these are in addition to those b&w LTs of early 1938 to Fall 1938 being drawn by Chuck Jones (almost certainly a couple AFTER Chuck's name disappears STILL featured his layouts as there's TOO big of a time-gap between his last name appearance under Clampett and Chuck's directorial debut). And so JLee's assessment of the "roundness and smoothness" of the 1938 Clampett toons being attributable to Chuck is almost certainly on the money.:D

This leaves a gap from when Jones left the Katz Studio in '38 to the point when Clampett took over Avery's unit in 1941 as to when to look for authentic Clampett-drawn animation layouts. And sure enough as it turns out that THAT most Clampett-ish of cartoons "Porky In Wackyland" DOES have not only surviving story sketches (which look exactly like the toon) but at least one known surviving CLAMPETT animation-layout!!:cool: And to be honest it is quite roughly drawn, but it is full of those weird-looking characters who populate the film! Sooooo the answer is a qualified "yes";) , at least on that cartoon Clampett is known to have drawn the animation layouts. And as John pointed out, that weird-looking drawing style would be the Clampett rule, in my book till the very moment that Bob took over the Avery unit.

And yeah Chris you could probably say that "What Price Porky" was military-themed (well as military as fowl can get :p:daffy: ) and that Chuck Jones was the head-honcho drawing it in the Fall of 1937. HOWEVER if you want a real military-theme cartoon that Chuck definitely worked on then hark back a couple years further to 1935's "Buddy Of The Legion" where you have rifle-bearing French Legionaires marching through the desert wastes (before being clobbered by monstrously masculine:rolleyes: Amazon women in a fort). Although that lovely dancing harem girl is a joy:D . Jones' name is not only on the title card as animator (under then director Ben Hardaway) but is carefully placed in the page of a book which is half-filled with gibberish, but it says "Chas M. Jones of screen___ credit(?) fame(?)". Assistant animator Bob Cannon's diminutive name ("Bobo") rates a mention too on the same page, but NO mention of Clampett despite his also getting screen credit. HEY that's something new for Greg's "Hidden Looney Tunes Gags" site!!:p

As to the ORIGINAL thought behind this thread:) , I tend to the idea of Clampett being inspired by Tex's Daffy to make this cartoon and as such pays tribute to "the little black duck" at the very least in it. I LIKE to think that those two cited "duckies" are versions of Daffy though...:daffy:

[Jack G.]

Thanks Sogturtle!
As always, the info you have is enlightning!

Clampett never did any layouts for his cartoons (sometimes 'energy sketches').It would be interesting to see what those looked like.

What a great set-up that must've been...some of the best (then future best) talents in animation given a story by a nutcase like Clampett and told "animate it", with little interference. Maybe he was a great director simply because he had great ideas and knew which tasks to assign to which people in order to realize the ideas.If you can give your artists room to really get creative, they'll give a lot if they know all their ideas aren't going to be shot down.

Clampett seemed open to what Scribner had to give as opposed to Robert McKimson, who "tamed" him down.

The ability to make a cartoon "his" and not feel he had to control every little gesture, I'd say is a plus in his case.

Don't know if this method would work for other styles, like Chuch Jones for instance.

[Thad]

It would be interesting to see what those looked like.

Unfortunately, I've never seen one, nor know of anyone with them. They must have really blown and weren't on par with any of his animators (or the other units' animators' artwork he raided wastebaskets for), otherwise he'd have saved them.

[LooneyLover81]

When Jones left the Clampett unit to be a director (animation supervisor) himself, wasn't his first release The Night Watchman (rel. 11/19/1938) the first cartoon he ever directed for WB/Leon Schlesinger? Or did he direct something else before "Watchman" and then it just got a later release?

[Daffysleftfoot]

And these are in addition to those b&w LTs of early 1938 to Fall 1938 being drawn by Chuck Jones (almost certainly a couple AFTER Chuck's name disappears STILL featured his layouts as there's TOO big of a time-gap between his last name appearance under Clampett and Chuck's directorial debut). And so JLee's assessment of the "roundness and smoothness" of the 1938 Clampett toons being attributable to Chuck is almost certainly on the money.:D

Hey, now that that's been brought up, I have a question. Since Jones took over Tashlin's unit, can any of his handiwork be seen in any of Tashlin's last films such as Little Pancho Vanilla or You're an Education? And thusly, did Tashlin do anything on The Night Watchman or Doggone Modern or any of Jones' other first cartoons?

[J Lee]

Hey, now that that's been brought up, I have a question. Since Jones took over Tashlin's unit, can any of his handiwork be seen in any of Tashlin's last films such as Little Pancho Vanilla or You're an Education? And thusly, did Tashlin do anything on The Night Watchman or Doggone Modern or any of Jones' other first cartoons?

I've never been able to see a Jones hand in Tashlin's final WB cartoons before heading over to Mr. Disney's joint. On the other hand, the design of Porky in the ending fight scene of Hardaway and Dalton's "Porky the Gob" looks a lot like Frank's design, and since the story is strongly similar to Tashlin's earlier "Little Beau Porky", that may have been the cartoon Frank was working on when he had his argument with Henry Bender and left the studio.