Ot-c11

[Duck Dodgers]

I've recently seen/heard a great commentary done by Matthew for "Tin Pan Alley Cats".
As he said, there are actually only one or two good copies of that cartoon around. I'm one of the lucky guys that own them. Remember when I did on my blog a series of posts devoted to these cartoons showing screenshots from them? Well, a friend of mine helped me and did professional transfers from the original sources to which I had access and from which I obtained the first copies.
The result now is amazing.
I'd like to know your opinions. Would you be interested if I would re-do them posts on my blog showing the NEW screenshots?
I was told I cannot trade them (I know, it's bad but I have to respect my word) but I can share at least pictures with my fellow GACers.

As said, these new copies are now done with professional care and the quality is terrific and DVD-like. So, what do I have to do? Do these new transfesr deserve new posts in your opinions?
Please do let me know. I add some shots as example right from the cartoon a faded print of Matthew had to use for his commentary.

[janiepooh34]

Sure, why not? I always enjoy your blog posts and an update would be just fine in my opinion.

[Bugsmer]

Go for it, Duck! We loved your original screencaps, and we'll doubly love your new ones. You do a great job on your blog, and expose people to things that they wouldn't necessarily get exposed to.

[Duck Dodgers]

One year ago I had professionally transferred only one of the C11 and I made a post about it. It was an update of the old post in which I used the first inferior copy.

http://classiccartoons.blogspot.com/2006/08/so-white-never-looked-so-good.html


Now I have the other ones professionally transferred but one.. I have in fact to say that I cannot find "All This and Rabbit Stew" in terrific conditions on pair with the other 10.

[cpdavison]

I've recently seen/heard a great commentary done by Matthew for "Tin Pan Alley Cats".

I'd like to know your opinions. Would you be interested if I would re-do them posts on my blog showing the NEW screenshots?


I say, do a new posting with the improved screen grabs!

Y'know... since you asked and all...

Craig D.

[Duck Dodgers]

I say, do a new posting with the improved screen grabs!

Y'know... since you asked and all...

Craig D.

I couldn't wait other time after a request from good ol' Craig;)

Here you have pictures from "Tin Pan Alley Cats", updated version.

http://classiccartoons.blogspot.com/2007/07/censor-this-tin-pan-alley-cats.html

[dandu]

The print is so amazing :) Now we wont have to rely on those old murky video transfers from like old VHS or betamax recorded off syndie or maybe early turner TV.

[Duck Dodgers]

I added shots from other C11. I redirect you to this because it is one of my favorite shorts ever:

http://classiccartoons.blogspot.com/2007/07/censor-this-clean-pastures.html

[LTS]

I tried to find a thread for my post as i didnt want to create a new topic and this one is somewhat related.
In the movie Zoolander for anyone who has watched it, what was everyone's thoughts when Ben Stiller wore Blackface to try and scare everyone at the construction site, when he goes to work with his dad? There was no uproar about that scene, isnt it viewed as racism and yet there is when it comes to cartoons which wore made over 60 years ago.

[Bartman]

The print is so amazing :) Now we wont have to rely on those old murky video transfers from like old VHS or betamax recorded off syndie or maybe early turner TV.

This cartoon has been off television since 1968 - it was pulled out of syndication by its distributors at that time - hence its part in the 'Censored 11'. Unless smilin' Ted owned a station prior to WTBS...

[fan4life]

This cartoon has been off television since 1968 - it was pulled out of syndication by its distributors at that time - hence its part in the 'Censored 11'. Unless smilin' Ted owned a station prior to WTBS...

Yet another casualty in the misguided war of "Political Correctness."

[Mark J]

Do you even know what you mean when you throw out the term 'political correctness' to describe anything you don't agree with? What does 'political corrrectness' have to do with the 1968 censored for syndicated tv distribution list???? The concept of 'politically correct', besides being a misnomer since it does not involve politics but refers to over cautious real or perceived societal sensitivity to various subjects, did not, and could not, exist in 1968. US society was anything but 'politically correct' in 1968 regarding race or most other subjects. This was only FOUR years after the hard fought passage of the Civil Rights Act which forced states to allow their black citizens to vote and have other basic rights, and this was the year Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated.


I'll state again that I think these 'censored 11' cartoons as well as other cartoons with racist and other objectionable images should be available for collectors on DVD, but they should never be on children's collections and should not be shown on TV. The list should have added at least 10 other cartoons in 1968 and should have been made in the early 1950's when the shorts were first packaged as children's entertainment for TV.

[fan4life]

Do you even know what you mean when you throw out the term 'political correctness' to describe anything you don't agree with? What does 'political corrrectness' have to do with the 1968 censored for syndicated tv distribution list???? The concept of 'politically correct', besides being a misnomer since it does not involve politics but refers to over cautious real or perceived societal sensitivity to various subjects, did not, and could not, exist in 1968. US society was anything but 'politically correct' in 1968 regarding race or most other subjects. This was only FOUR years after the hard fought passage of the Civil Rights Act which forced states to allow their black citizens to vote and have other basic rights, and this was the year Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated.


I'll state again that I think these 'censored 11' cartoons as well as other cartoons with racist and other objectionable images should be available for collectors on DVD, but they should never be on children's collections and should not be shown on TV. The list should have added at least 10 other cartoons in 1968 and should have been made in the early 1950's when the shorts were first packaged as children's entertainment for TV.

I'm against racism and bigotry; I think what is important is what kind of person one is, alweays have and always will. And this was a valid concept before Political Correctness ever came on the scene.

The old Soviet system called it the Party Line, here its called Political Correctness. It creates sacred cows and taboos, sets its own precepts as to fashionable attitudes and beliefs, makes certain topics, expressions and gestures off-limits, and basically takes all the fun out of being alive. We are supposedly so afraid of offending someoine that we unnecessarily have to sanitize our society-even when there was no visible threat in the first place.

By the way, PC isn't just a left wing concept-the right wing has its own set of precepts one must follow, only here, they dress it up in a more decidedly jingoist and patriotic package.

[Mark J]

You still didn't say what this has to do with the 1968 list as you stated in your previous post.


I don't subscribe to 'correct' ideas from either side of the aisle, but I do think that generally the left is responsible for blurring the lines between real racism and bigotry and simple expression, parody or humor in an effort not to offend any potential voters, and I think this has you so turned around that you don't recognize genuine offensive material when you see it. These toons are racist - live with it. They were racist in 1940, they are racist today. The NAACP did file complaints, I remember Michael Barrier's book made mention of it, as they did on many other racist images in radio and film and later tv, but they were really very busy at the time fighting lynching laws, segregation and other outrages and popular entertainment was not the priority. I have also read how ideas on race changed during the 1940's - when Jack Benny took a vacation they would play 'reruns' of his radio shows. In about 1948 they played a show from 1940 when Rochester was more 'stereotypical' and took a trip to Harlem to gamble. This resulted in many angry calls and letters to the network and complaints by the NAACP, and they agreed not to air older episodes anymore (although shockingly Amos and Andy would continue on the radio doing a minstrel act, white men playing shiftless blacks, until 1959!!!!).

Remember that your hometown of New Orleans was segragated until the 1960's, that blacks couldn't stay in 'white' hotels or eat in 'white' restaurants, that when Louis Armstrong came home in the late 1940's to be the King of the Zulus in the Zulu Parade he was shocked how racist his birth town had become, that he couldn't go to his old neighborhood and eat where he wanted to or use public transportation, and he swore never to return. New Orleans also had a 'caste' system between light skinned and dark skinned blacks which was a rather unique inner group racism of its own. Listen to the Library of Congress interview with Jelly Roll Morton for more information on that. You could deny racism all you want, but it is part of your own heritage and history and part of America today and yesterday and in these and other cartoons and films.

[J Lee]

This cartoon has been off television since 1968 - it was pulled out of syndication by its distributors at that time - hence its part in the 'Censored 11'. Unless smilin' Ted owned a station prior to WTBS...

Depended on what part of the country you lived in.

When I was growing up in New York, WNEW had already removed those cartoons (and all WWII cartoons) from rotation by the early 60s. When I lived in the Dallas area in the early 1980s, KTVT was still airing "Jungle Jitters" in regular rotation. So in some cases the "Censored 11" were censored locally before there ever was any action by United Artists; in other cases, stations that already had the pre-48 WB package just kept showing those cartoons (and I've got a copy of "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips" recorded off Turner's WTBS around 1983 or so, so it wasn't as if the Ted Turner of 1983 had any opposition to those type of cartoons; it was just that WTBS didn't acquire the pre-48 WB package until after UA's ban).

[Bartman]

Depended on what part of the country you lived in.

When I was growing up in New York, WNEW had already removed those cartoons (and all WWII cartoons) from rotation by the early 60s. When I lived in the Dallas area in the early 1980s, KTVT was still airing "Jungle Jitters" in regular rotation. So in some cases the "Censored 11" were censored locally before there ever was any action by United Artists; in other cases, stations that already had the pre-48 WB package just kept showing those cartoons (and I've got a copy of "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips" recorded off Turner's WTBS around 1983 or so, so it wasn't as if the Ted Turner of 1983 had any opposition to those type of cartoons; it was just that WTBS didn't acquire the pre-48 WB package until after UA's ban).

"BBNTN" is not one of the "Censored 11" - "All This and Rabbit Stew" is the only Bugs Bunny short in that group - you are getting 2 separate lists confused...

"Jungle Jitters", while one of the 'Censored 11', has fallen into the public domain due to a copyright lapse - it's out there for anyone to see.

[fan4life]

I don't subscribe to 'correct' ideas from either side of the aisle, but I do think that generally the left is responsible for blurring the lines between real racism and bigotry and simple expression, parody or humor in an effort not to offend any potential voters, and I think this has you so turned around that you don't recognize genuine offensive material when you see it.

I won't deny that liberal PC (being a liberal myself, I don't subscribe to that school of thought or lack thereof) sees offense where none is intended-and I've known some whose extreme objections to various things would probably shock even the likes of Al Franken and Janeane Garofalo (not to mention some of you on this board); shocks me, and i tend to be pretty shockproof. But I do not pick up the slightest air of self-righteousness from you and some others here, and I respect you all as colleagues.

As for offensive material, I'm southern born. Do I get offended every time I watch a Foghorn Leghorn cartoon, or something featuring southern antebellum life (cartoon or live action)? No. Because, not only do I realize it's just a toon or a movie or whatever, but I also know that southern culture is pretty diverse. Incidentally, I saw and enjoyed "Confederate Honey (1940)", and I understand that it's drawn some controversy. There's a good topic for a thread....

I draw the line between entertainment and politicizing-but I am also open-minded enough that were it documented that the likes of Bob Clampett had some serious racial issues in his life that informed his work, I guarantee you I'd change my tune pretty quick: I'd see that he was not coming at it from an entertainment standpoint and was instead coming at things from a racial context. I can admit I'm wrong-there's no honor lost, and to some extent, even respectable.


The NAACP did file complaints, I remember Michael Barrier's book made mention of it, as they did on many other racist images in radio and film and later tv


Shoot me off some links on that, or at least the title of that book. Because these days, I don't exactly hear the likes of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton raising cain over it, and what's the NAACP's take on it currently?


Remember that your hometown of New Orleans was segragated until the 1960's, that blacks couldn't stay in 'white' hotels or eat in 'white' restaurants, that when Louis Armstrong came home in the late 1940's to be the King of the Zulus in the Zulu Parade he was shocked how racist his birth town had become, that he couldn't go to his old neighborhood and eat where he wanted to or use public transportation, and he swore never to return.

It was shameful and degrading experience, segregation. Some people do not know what it involved or how much fighting had to be done to reverse it. And though before my time, I'm not blind to this particular chapter in my hometown's history.

New Orleans also had a 'caste' system between light skinned and dark skinned blacks which was a rather unique inner group racism of its own.

Trust me-I know all about that! It's called the Paper Bag Party, where if one was darker than a particular shade of brown paper bag, they were denied entry.


Man, I do love this group! Best one I belong to, i'll tell ya that! We may not always see eye-to-eye, but we do have some good discussions!

[Mark J]

I don't believe Clampett was racist and don't think he had racist intent in making Coal Black and Tin Pan Alley Cats, but here is some info about the NAACP and Coal Black from an article published in the Journal of Popular Film and Television in 2001:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0412/is_2_29/ai_77609482/pg_2

"Walter White of the NAACP began a coalition with Hollywood producers Walter Wanger and Darryl Zanuck that aimed at removing black stereotypes from Hollywood movies in 1942 (Cripps 53). Various organizations included cartoons in their lists of undesirable films. In the year of Coal Black's release, the NAACP protested the cartoon's exhibition. In 1944 the African American newspaper Pittsburgh Courier complained about the pairing of the integration-themed documentary film Americans All with Angel Puss--a cartoon starring a dimwitted, sleepy-eyed black boy named Sambo--at a theater (Hill 13)."

From what I have read it appears the NAACP was most annoyed at the portrayal of black soldiers in Coal Black. The US Army was still segregated in World War 2 and all black units had a lot of problems, they saw their portrayal in the toon as adding to the problem.

[fan4life]

I don't believe Clampett was racist and don't think he had racist intent in making Coal Black and Tin Pan Alley Cats, but here is some info about the NAACP and Coal Black from an article published in the Journal of Popular Film and Television in 2001:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0412/is_2_29/ai_77609482/pg_2

"Walter White of the NAACP began a coalition with Hollywood producers Walter Wanger and Darryl Zanuck that aimed at removing black stereotypes from Hollywood movies in 1942 (Cripps 53). Various organizations included cartoons in their lists of undesirable films. In the year of Coal Black's release, the NAACP protested the cartoon's exhibition. In 1944 the African American newspaper Pittsburgh Courier complained about the pairing of the integration-themed documentary film Americans All with Angel Puss--a cartoon starring a dimwitted, sleepy-eyed black boy named Sambo--at a theater (Hill 13)."

From what I have read it appears the NAACP was most annoyed at the portrayal of black soldiers in Coal Black. The US Army was still segregated in World War 2 and all black units had a lot of problems, they saw their portrayal in the toon as adding to the problem.

I studied this article and it does go a long way in clearing up a few things in this matter! So apparently there was some degree of protest on this matter back in the 1940s and it is not a recent issue of contention.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

I don't believe Clampett was racist and don't think he had racist intent in making Coal Black and Tin Pan Alley Cats, but here is some info about the NAACP and Coal Black from an article published in the Journal of Popular Film and Television in 2001:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0412/is_2_29/ai_77609482/pg_2
Thanks for the link, Mark J. I find this kind of information fascinating. I already printed out the article for my records.

[J Lee]

"BBNTN" is not one of the "Censored 11" - "All This and Rabbit Stew" is the only Bugs Bunny short in that group - you are getting 2 separate lists confused...

"Jungle Jitters", while one of the 'Censored 11', has fallen into the public domain due to a copyright lapse - it's out there for anyone to see.

I was referring back to the first part in connection with WNEW -- they were the first to institute the ban, which included the Censored 11 and the WW II cartoons, of which "BBNTN" was included.

When Turner went on the bird with WTBS in the late 1970s, he had no pretentions of "molding the world" -- he just had a vision of making more $$$ by sending Ch. 17 out of Atlanta to other cable systems. So for the first 10 years or so, people watching WTBS were just getting an Atlanta station that didn't care what the delecate sensabilities of people in New York were, and aired the WWII cartoon regularly. They probably would have aired the Censored 11 as well, except that WTBS didn't get the AAP package until after the ban was putin effect, so those cartoons were not shipped.

On the other hand, KTVT in Dallas got their AAP package well before the ban went into effect, so they continued to show C-11 cartoons into the 1980s inwhat was by then a Top 5 media market in the U.S. They only stopped when they finally swapped their film versions of the cartoons for new versions on videotape, just before Turner acquired the pre-48 WB cartoons. No more scratches and splices, but also no more controversal cartoons, since videotape copies of those (and all but the mildest of the WWII-themed cartoons) were never sent out.

[Mark J]

You're welcome. I thought the article was very interesting and relevant to our discussions here.

[fan4life]

You're welcome. I thought the article was very interesting and relevant to our discussions here.

I read it again-you may have something of a case.

[Duck Dodgers]

Hold on your hat, folks! Here we go again!

http://classiccartoons.blogspot.com/2007/07/censor-this-sunday-go-to-meetin-time.html

[dandu]

WOW! Look at that! :D Thank you so much duck dodgers!

[Vdubdavid]

It's too bad about the visuals, because I think on its own the title song is quite catchy!