Why were Harveytoons so violent?

[Comicfan]

Whenever a discussion of violent and/or disturbing cartoons comes up, Harveytoons leads the pack, with mention of Herman and Katnip, Baby Huey, etc.
What lead to HTs being so dark and violent? And what is the element that makes the Harveytoons more disturbing then their slapstick relatives over at WB, MGM, etc?

[J. J. Hunsecker]

My guess is that it's because the people directing the Famous/Harveytoons cartoons didn't understand slapstick or the Warner/MGM brand of rowdy humor. They were imitating it because it was so popular with audiences, but it probably wasn't really their type of comedy. If you look at the early Fleischer cartoons the Famous studios guys worked on, there really isn't much slapstick -- except for Popeye, but I don't know if that really counts as slapstick so much as a beating. The Fleischer cartoons relied more on sight gags and surrealism for their comedy.

The main problem with the violent jokes in the Harveytoons is that the reactions to it are too normal and real -- characters tend to yell in real pain. (Plus they're timed too slow sometimes.) There's no exaggeration or funny expressions to temper the violence, to make it more about the characters emotions -- such as Wile E. Coyote's embarrassed reactions to another of his failed attempts. Maybe, too, if the Harveytoons broke the 4th wall like Avery's cartoons did -- i.e. shattering like glass after getting hit, or literally flying apart from surprise -- that might have helped.

[Duck Dodgers]

My guess is that it's because the people directing the Famous/Harveytoons cartoons didn't understand slapstick or the Warner/MGM brand of rowdy humor. They were imitating it because it was so popular with audiences, but it probably wasn't really their type of comedy.

My guess is that they tried to imitate other Studios and in the same time trying to exagerate and doing something different.

Here's an example of a tipical later Famous Studio violent gag.

[Ray Pointer]

My guess is that it's because the people directing the Famous/Harveytoons cartoons didn't understand slapstick or the Warner/MGM brand of rowdy humor. They were imitating it because it was so popular with audiences, but it probably wasn't really their type of comedy. If you look at the early Fleischer cartoons the Famous studios guys worked on, there really isn't much slapstick -- except for Popeye, but I don't know if that really counts as slapstick so much as a beating. The Fleischer cartoons relied more on sight gags and surrealism for their comedy.

The main problem with the violent jokes in the Harveytoons is that the reactions to it are too normal and real -- characters tend to yell in real pain. (Plus they're timed too slow sometimes.) There's no exaggeration or funny expressions to temper the violence, to make it more about the characters emotions -- such as Wile E. Coyote's embarrassed reactions to another of his failed attempts. Maybe, too, if the Harveytoons broke the 4th wall like Avery's cartoons did -- i.e. shattering like glass after getting hit, or literally flying apart from surprise -- that might have helped.

The Fleischer cartoons, particularly POPEYE were "Slapschtick" with a lot of old Vaudville influences as well. The overt violence seemed to enter around 1948. The reason for the violence was an effort to imitate the eggagerations of MGM and Warner Brothers cartoons for the sake of doing it over the logic of the gag. The "same guys" were Seymour Kneitel and Izzy Sparber primarily. I think that the basic flaw was due to the story material and not knowing what to do with it along with pressures from the Paramount sales office.:huey: :buzzy: :audrey:

[kaneda]

Possibly there was an intention of realism not realising that such pain would no longer be funny?


Buzzy the Crow's "No Ifs, Ands or Butts" (1954) was a serious anti-smoking cartoon.

[Duck Dodgers]

I love Famous cartoons!!
Other examples, folks!;) (You can actually see their pain!:eek: )

[J Lee]

The writing for the Famous cartoons was pretty straightfoward until the mid-1950s -- that is, while only the Casper and Audrey cartoons deliberately targeted younger audiences, they never really wrote to a slightly more adult point of view, the way the Warner cartoons did by the end of the 30s. They wanted to keep the adults at the theaters entertained, but there aren't many gags that would go over the heads of children in the audience.

Combined with the desire (likely from Kneitel) for smooth fluid looking animation on a tight budget by the end of the 40s, that meant that the cartoons really had to be carried by their stories, because doing looks, takes and walks outside certain stock formats cost time and money. So Famous animators couldn't add those little visual touches like Jones, Avery and others on the West Coast did to diminish the pain of the animated gag -- the Paramount shorts live and die by the strength of each individual gag from about 1949 on, with only a few cartoons (like "Voice of the Turkey") going out of the way to do a little funny animation that isn't directly related to moving the story along.

Ironically, it was just about the time that Paramount started cutting the budgets that the story lines on many of the one-shot Noveltoons began getting as sophisticated as some of the cartoons still being done out in California. And the lower budgeted animation actually did help make the remaining violent gags easier to take (Katnip getting sliced in half in 1958's "Owly to Bed" isn't anywhere near as painful as stuff from just 2-3 years earlier).

[houserunner]

I'm not familiar with Famous studios/Harveytoons.
But, looks like very interesting.
These cartoons are released dvd set or something?
If so, please let me know. Thanks.

[Eugene the Jeep]

http://www.amazon.com/Harvey-Toons-Complete-Collection-Harveytoons/dp/B000GG4XWE/ref=sr_1_1/102-1891360-1697733?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1177995916&sr=1-1


not literally complete, but they're mostly there.

[Comicfan]

Some of those screenshots..:eek:!I see what folks mean. I remember the "Knife wheel" gag and the "peepshow shotgun" gag in particular being mentioned whenever the subject of "most painful cartoon gags" comes up

[houserunner]

Eugene the Jeep, That helps me a lot. Thank you very much.

[Jack G.]

I watched the Famous studios/Harveytoons when I was very young.

I don't remember caring much for them.

Still, I'm giving them another chance; I've just ordered the Harveytoons set.