The Restored Superman Cartoons

[Duck Dodgers]

Can anyone post screenshots of the restored Fleischer and Famous Superman cartoons featured in the recently released Superman DVD sets?

[pablo]

Only a couple of shots but looks great: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showpost.php?p=3021546&postcount=1936

[mighty mouse]

Ive got the new superman movies, and ive watched some of the cartoons and believe me images on the internet do not do it justice ! They look as good as the looney tunes dvds, the fleischer shorts have never looked better ! On the superman 2 special edition there is also a nice featurette about 13 minutes or so , that talks about the fleischer superman cartoons ! It was very informative and enjoyable !:cool:

[sumnernor]

Ive got the new superman movies, and ive watched some of the cartoons and believe me images on the internet do not do it justice ! They look as good as the looney tunes dvds, the fleischer shorts have never looked better ! On the superman 2 special edition there is also a nice featurette about 13 minutes or so , that talks about the fleischer superman cartoons ! It was very informative and enjoyable !:cool:

I expect to get this Superman Ultimate HOWEVER I noticed there are some problems on Amazon.com:

Bonus content was omitted from the Superman III Deluxe Edition in the 14-disc Superman Ultimate Collector's Edition. Furthermore, disc one of Superman: The Movie Four Disc Special Edition did not include the Dolby Digital 2.0 mix. Neither disc is known to be physically defective in any way.

Since there are so many things coming out because of the $$$ was was going to wait a month or 2 which might be good because of the above problem. I notice that the UK set has one less DVD (13-disks) than the US set(14-disks)???? What is missing????:confused:
I request any UK GACers who buy this set, which will be coming out very soon in the UK,to indicate what is on the set (and what is not)

PS - To me Superman is not Reeves but Bud Collier who was the radio Superman. Part of my youth was BEFORE TV and radio had many shows such as Superman, Jack Benny, Amos and Andy etc etc.

[Geezil]

On the first Fleischer Superman, is the original soundtrack finally 100% intact again?

There. It's done. (And some longer-time GACers will understand what I mean.) ;)

[TServo2049]

Here's another question which I'm dying to find out the answer to: does each cartoon have its correct opening soundtrack and Jackson Beck spiel variation, and its correct closing fanfare?

For those who don't know, the versions seen on AOL's In2TV online service, which were also official WB transfers from really good prints, often had the wrong opening/closing soundtracks, usually from the pilot cartoon. This meant, for example, that Billion Dollar Limited had a *slowed down* version of the pilot cartoon theme, instead of the one-time extended version of the theme (with train sound effects under the title), and The Magnetic Telescope was lacking those creepy electrical sounds under the title. One of them, due to the time differences between its opening and the pilot opening, faded out the dubbed-in pilot arrangement early!

The Mechanical Monsters had the ENTIRE pilot cartoon prologue up front, and some other ones had the spiel variation from the pilot. (And often, those that had the pilot spiel had a weird splice in the words "truth and justice," though at least one cartoon--NOT the pilot itself, mind you--had it intact.)

Also, the closing fanfare would often be replaced with that from the pilot cartoon, leading to jarring edits, as each cartoon's closing score continued into the closing fanfare heard on the Paramount logo. (Even stranger, the pilot cartoon itself had a jump cut to its own closing fanfare!)

So can anyone say if the cartoons' soundtracks are unaltered, or if they have the same incorrect opening/closing soundtracks as the In2TV versions? I remember watching the In2TV versions and being extremely dismayed that the soundtracks/prologues were incorrect, while the myriad public domain versions are all correct. (Thankfully, the In2TV version of Terror on the Midway was actually a quality print, on par with the rest, and it had the complete opening, free of that awful jarring splice we always see on the PD versions; I assume that the DVD version is just as complete...)

[Jon Cooke]

I expect to get this Superman Ultimate HOWEVER I noticed there are some problems on Amazon.com:

Wow, I guess Warner Home Video's recent lack of quality control isn't just on their classic cartoon DVD sets. :befuddled

[mighty mouse]

Tservo, keep in mind i have the region 2 special edition superman movies. But, they seem to be like the in2tv versions.Dont let that stop you, while i would like them :cool: to be just like you said, this is the best they looked, even slightly cleaner looking than the in 2 tv versions !!!:cool:

[mighty mouse]

All of them do have the Jackson Beck narration, on the fleischers they have the first version , on the famous they have the version with the pounding surf.:D

[FleischerFan]

After all the hype about these versions of the Fleischer shorts, it is disturbing to read that they screwed up the opens and the closes. And it's not like these are "lost" cartoons that no one knows how they are supposed to look.

They may have cleaned up the prints - but if the opens and closes and incorrect, then they are not "definitive". I am already rethinking a purchase of this material.

I was burned by the Tom & Jerry "replacement disc" program (4 months after my first call and still no discs), so Warner Brothers Home Video is not exactly at the top of my "Outstanding Service" list.

[MarkTheShark]

Here's another question which I'm dying to find out the answer to: does each cartoon have its correct opening soundtrack and Jackson Beck spiel variation, and its correct closing fanfare?

For those who don't know, the versions seen on AOL's In2TV online service, which were also official WB transfers from really good prints, often had the wrong opening/closing soundtracks, usually from the pilot cartoon. This meant, for example, that Billion Dollar Limited had a *slowed down* version of the pilot cartoon theme, instead of the one-time extended version of the theme (with train sound effects under the title), and The Magnetic Telescope was lacking those creepy electrical sounds under the title. One of them, due to the time differences between its opening and the pilot opening, faded out the dubbed-in pilot arrangement early!

The Mechanical Monsters had the ENTIRE pilot cartoon prologue up front, and some other ones had the spiel variation from the pilot. (And often, those that had the pilot spiel had a weird splice in the words "truth and justice," though at least one cartoon--NOT the pilot itself, mind you--had it intact.)

Also, the closing fanfare would often be replaced with that from the pilot cartoon, leading to jarring edits, as each cartoon's closing score continued into the closing fanfare heard on the Paramount logo. (Even stranger, the pilot cartoon itself had a jump cut to its own closing fanfare!)

So can anyone say if the cartoons' soundtracks are unaltered, or if they have the same incorrect opening/closing soundtracks as the In2TV versions? I remember watching the In2TV versions and being extremely dismayed that the soundtracks/prologues were incorrect, while the myriad public domain versions are all correct. (Thankfully, the In2TV version of Terror on the Midway was actually a quality print, on par with the rest, and it had the complete opening, free of that awful jarring splice we always see on the PD versions; I assume that the DVD version is just as complete...)

I picked up the first volume last night and the presentation of the Fleischer cartoons, for most of them, seems to be just as you're describing above.

Guess I'm keeping my VCI disc.

On the plus side, the color is really excellent, I'm hearing nuances in the music I don't think I've ever heard before, and no futzing with "Terror On The Midway" (no freeze-frames, etc.)

[Geezil]

Well, I guess I won't need to worry about that question ever again! :shame:

(I like the VCI package too.)

[TServo2049]

Well, I guess I won't need to worry about that question ever again! :shame:

(I like the VCI package too.)

Well, for your question, the In2TV version of the pilot toon did have the same dialogue edit as every other version we've ever seen. If these are the same transfers, then it's the same.

All information I've heard says that the "for a woman"/"for a girl" line was removed from the beginning, and I bet that it is in the original negative now. If you saw a print at the George Eastman House in 1978, it was almost certainly a private print. Who knows where it is now?

And that's a crying shame about the redubs. If these are indeed the In2TV versions, the prints are great, though they are obviously PRINTS, with noticeable amounts of multicolored printed-in dirt and stuff, of the kind you'd expect to see in a nitrate IB dye-transfer print. And there's mercifully only the slightest, almost unnoticeable amount of DVNR.

The good definitely outweighs the bad; if you ignore the opening/closing issues, they look and sound amazing, unlike anything we've ever seen.

I remember reading somewhere that UCLA had the negatives, and WB only had 35mm nitrate prints. Maybe WB's prints are missing audio, or stuff. If so, I wish that people reconstructing things were required to know what they originally looked/sounded like. That way, for example, we wouldn't get the 1937 season theme on a later B&W Looney Tune, like we used to before the DVD restorations...

[Geezil]

I remember reading somewhere that UCLA had the negatives, and WB only had 35mm nitrate prints. Maybe WB's prints are missing audio, or stuff. If so, I wish that people reconstructing things were required to know what they originally looked/sounded like.

Obviously, someone at WB still needs to see either one of the two top-of-the-PD-line packages, then!

And thanks for the rest of your comments on the Great Mystery.

[ottermi619]

I'm hopin' WB will release those newly restored cartoons separately as I don't wanna blow out all kinds of money on other stuff that might bore me down... (I'd like to at least see some more screenshots, especially of the title cards)

[Mike in Jersey]

Here's another question which I'm dying to find out the answer to: does each cartoon have its correct opening soundtrack and Jackson Beck spiel variation, and its correct closing fanfare?

For those who don't know, the versions seen on AOL's In2TV online service, which were also official WB transfers from really good prints, often had the wrong opening/closing soundtracks, usually from the pilot cartoon. This meant, for example, that Billion Dollar Limited had a *slowed down* version of the pilot cartoon theme, instead of the one-time extended version of the theme (with train sound effects under the title), and The Magnetic Telescope was lacking those creepy electrical sounds under the title. One of them, due to the time differences between its opening and the pilot opening, faded out the dubbed-in pilot arrangement early!

The Mechanical Monsters had the ENTIRE pilot cartoon prologue up front, and some other ones had the spiel variation from the pilot. (And often, those that had the pilot spiel had a weird splice in the words "truth and justice," though at least one cartoon--NOT the pilot itself, mind you--had it intact.)

Also, the closing fanfare would often be replaced with that from the pilot cartoon, leading to jarring edits, as each cartoon's closing score continued into the closing fanfare heard on the Paramount logo. (Even stranger, the pilot cartoon itself had a jump cut to its own closing fanfare!)

So can anyone say if the cartoons' soundtracks are unaltered, or if they have the same incorrect opening/closing soundtracks as the In2TV versions? I remember watching the In2TV versions and being extremely dismayed that the soundtracks/prologues were incorrect, while the myriad public domain versions are all correct. (Thankfully, the In2TV version of Terror on the Midway was actually a quality print, on par with the rest, and it had the complete opening, free of that awful jarring splice we always see on the PD versions; I assume that the DVD version is just as complete...)


Hi,
I just purchased the 2 disc Superman 2 set. The cartoons (in this case the Famous Studio cartoons have been edited as described above.... my guess is that they are the exact same prints. The colors are very good to excellent, but the cartoons all have a bit of a "grainy" look to them. It looks as though, other than slapping on a random fornt and back end no restoration was done to these cartoons. I will be getting the 4 disc Superman with the Fleischer cartoons (as soon as it's re-released, it seems that it was recalled) because it looks like these will be the best we get. I'll also Keep my Bosko collection for the "unedited" (that one's for Geezil) versions.

[Treadwell]

I don't believe the "for a woman" line was ever there to begin with. It's implied in the subtext, which would lead to someone expecting to actually hear it the second time they see the cartoon. The shot is a zoom, and has a dissolve, and there's lots of time at the tail where Clark's lips are not moving. This means that if there had been a line that was removed, they sent the scene back under the camera and a new optical made at the lab for the dissolve. I find this unlikely.

[Mike in Jersey]

I don't believe the "for a woman" line was ever there to begin with. It's implied in the subtext, which would lead to someone expecting to actually hear it the second time they see the cartoon. The shot is a zoom, and has a dissolve, and there's lots of time at the tail where Clark's lips are not moving. This means that if there had been a line that was removed, they sent the scene back under the camera and a new optical made at the lab for the dissolve. I find this unlikely.

Try this... if your DVD player can go foward one frame at a time, it appears right before the screen goes completely black in that scene Clark's mouth is frozen in the "FFF" position. Try it, it's there (I used the Bosko collection for this experiment) It certainly lends creedemce to the notion that he was about to say "...for a woman." there is also an audible edit sound at this point.

[Geezil]

I don't believe the "for a woman" line was ever there to begin with. It's implied in the subtext, which would lead to someone expecting to actually hear it the second time they see the cartoon. The shot is a zoom, and has a dissolve, and there's lots of time at the tail where Clark's lips are not moving. This means that if there had been a line that was removed, they sent the scene back under the camera and a new optical made at the lab for the dissolve. I find this unlikely.

Belief is in the experience of the individual (or something like that). Again, I firmly believe it was more than implied by the Fleischer team, and I'm here to restate that it was there in the original version! More, this would be far easier to prove factual than that Droopy business (sorry, and hold the brickbats, please), at such time as one of us can track down and confer with a private collector who may have that print used by the George Eastman House, or another struck at the same time. (And I'm still trying to do so.)

[cpdavison]

I have it on good authority from and actual entertainment insider (pictured below) that the line in question actually concludes with the words "...for me to p**p on!"

http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/triumph.bmp

Yeah, OK, sorry about that everyone... http://www.goldenagecartoons.com/forums/images/smilies/redface.gif (And Burt, in particular!)

Craig D.

[Leviathan]

What would we do without you, Craig? :tweety:

As for the Superman cartoon thing, i'm afraid i'm even less interested in it now.

[Geezil]

lol, Craig. :D And OK already, I get the point. But on the other hand, if no one at GAC ever brought up any of the Thousand Points of Cartoon Viewing Micromanagement (of which I'll arbitrarily label That One #724), just how interesting would this board really be? Hmmmmmmm? :befuddled

[David Gerstein]

More, this would be far easier to prove factual than that Droopy businessParamount copyright synopses in the 1930s featured complete transcripts of each cartoon's dialogue. If they looked the same in 1941 (something I haven't checked), a quick trip to the Library of Congress might be able to settle this matter.

[pablo]

A post on Home Theater Forum relevant to our topic:


Got my set yesterday. First thing I did was watch Superman 2 Doner Cut and loved it (much better than lesters IMO). Then I popped in Disc 4 to check out the Max Fleischer toons.

I currently own on DVD:
Max Fleischer's Superman
Superman: The Lost Episodes
The Complete Superman Collection: Diamond Aniversary Edition

But when I started watching these new WHV releases included in the Ultimate Collectors Edition Boxset I couldn't believe the colors I was seeing. It made me feel like I had only watched these toons in Black & White before. Sure all the previous releases are in color, and I thought Diamond Aniversary Edition's" color looked good (kind of nastalgic like) but dang! These WHV releases colors are bold, vivid, almost like their different or new toons. Me likey alot.

[Nelson]

Uh, did someone say that some of the Superman cartoons on this collection, are edited?It seems(if that's the case)that WHV can't seem to do anything right with their other cartoon holdings, as several MGM cartoons have been edited for dvd releases and this really has to to stop.I will tell everyone one thing that when it comes to releasing classic cartoons uncut and uncensored,(expect the LTGC) then that honor goes to Disney and not Warners.

[Mike in Jersey]

Uh, did someone say that some of the Superman cartoons on this collection, are edited?It seems(if that's the case)that WHV can't seem to do anything right with their other cartoon holdings, as several MGM cartoons have been edited for dvd releases and this really has to to stop.I will tell everyone one thing that when it comes to releasing classic cartoons uncut and uncensored,(expect the LTGC) then that honor goes to Disney and not Warners.

The cartoons themselves are not edited.... just the intro's and outro's. I'm not sure why. but it looks like at one point in time the cartoons them selves had been seperated from their respective title openings and Paramount logo endings. Perhaps these were intended, at one time, to be used as TV prints?

The colors are terrific though, dramatically better than even the Bosko set and what they've run on the Cartoon Network in recent years.

[MarkTheShark]

The cartoons themselves are not edited.... just the intro's and outro's. I'm not sure why. but it looks like at one point in time the cartoons them selves had been seperated from their respective title openings and Paramount logo endings. Perhaps these were intended, at one time, to be used as TV prints?

The colors are terrific though, dramatically better than even the Bosko set and what they've run on the Cartoon Network in recent years.

And read into it what you will, but the altering of the openings and closings allows WB to copyright these new transfers as "new versions."

[rkish]

I don't know if this question was posed at any point in this thread, BUT, has Warner made any plans to release these cartoons separately in their own collection? If so, it is hoped that these errors are corrected.

[Mike in Jersey]

And read into it what you will, but the altering of the openings and closings allows WB to copyright these new transfers as "new versions."

If butchering the openings and closings of these cartoons (the edits are sloppy) just so they could copyright these versions.... that's just poor.

[sumnernor]

I don't know if this question was posed at any point in this thread, BUT, has Warner made any plans to release these cartoons separately in their own collection? If so, it is hoped that these errors are corrected.
I was looking at a german mail order firm (www.jpc.de (http://www.jpc.de)) and made a search for "Superman" and saw that in " 1- 3 weeks" there will be 2 separate DVDs issued of Superman cartoons Vol 1 with 9 cartoons and a 2nd with 8 cartoons. No other information was given. THEREFORE I assume Warner Brothers USA will be doing the same.

PS - I now have some doubt that these are Warner Brothers. IF I see WB Superman cartoons available as singles - I will post the info.

[jazzman78]

I just got the Ultimate set - Picture wise they are beautiful, better than I have ever seen them and I notced the edits that are mention above. Is it possible that the 35mm prints were not complete or were damaged and that is why only a few of them have the complete end titles with the correct music?

I know that warner is supose to have (in the near future) sending out some repleacement discs for some for the disc. For example Superman 3 is missing several extra features.

Does anybody know the phone number or email address to register for the replacement discs?

[pablo]

Amazon's page (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000J10ERE/) for the UE of Superman has Warner's statement with the phone number:

Customer notice: Warner Home Video has discovered that bonus content was inadvertently omitted from the Superman III Deluxe Edition contained within some of the 14-disc Superman Ultimate Collector's Edition gift boxes. Also, disc 1 of Superman: The Movie in the Superman Ultimate Collector's Edition was produced with Dolby Surround 5.1 but inadvertently did not include the original 1978 Dolby 2.0 stereo surround sound mix. Please note that these discs are still playable and not defective. If you need to replace your discs, please call 1-800-553-6937 and replacement discs will be made available at no cost to you.

[jazzman78]

If you bought the Ultimate Superman - here is the phone number at warner bros to order the replacement for disc 1 & 8.

1-800-553-6937 - the replacement discs should be sent out in about a month (that's what they told me)

[sumnernor]

I just got the Ultimate set

I would like to know what the 14th DVD has on it. The UK and DE versions have only 13 DVDs- The DVD I would like to know about is "Bryan Singer's Journals (Extended Edition)"-. I am tempted to get the set from the UK or DE. I have the feeling I don't mind NOT getting the 14th since there is trouble with the US set.

[TServo2049]

I will just say, for the record, don't let the altered opening and closing audio tracks stop you from buying these discs. The prints are the best we'll ever get, audio futzing or no audio futzing. Terror on the Midway finally has a complete opening and no splices, and finally has a print on par with the others. I was also, again, amazed beyond belief to see a virtual lack of DVNR.

But all in all, wonderful. Just wonderful.

Be thankful that we have these wonderful prints of the Superman cartoons to watch, uncut (at least as uncut as they've ever been) except for slightly altered opening and closing soundtracks.

Fans of The Thief and the Cobbler have to get out-of-print laserdiscs and import DVDs just to see the film in widescreen, and not only is it still in Miramax butcher-job form, but the prints and transfers are often strangely substandard for a film released in 1995 (not to mention that all the Richard Williams scenes are from cruddy-looking dupe stock). If we want something closer to Richard Williams' original vision, we have to create our own edits using bootleg tapes of workprints to fill in the gaps, etc.

Are you grateful now? It's not like they edited the CARTOONS themselves. It's as absurd as, say, not buying the Flintstones season sets simply because they removed the Screen Gems logos at the end. Sometimes you just need to focus on the 99% of something that's good, and try to blot out the 1% that's not.

[Studio Toledo]

I will just say, for the record, don't let the altered opening and closing audio tracks stop you from buying these discs. The prints are the best we'll ever get, audio futzing or no audio futzing. Terror on the Midway finally has a complete opening and no splices, and finally has a print on par with the others. I was also, again, amazed beyond belief to see a virtual lack of DVNR.
Being reminded more of watching a version of Terror on the Midway on AMC years ago that had a WB logo that replaced the Paramount at the opening, and a "Warner Communications" end cap that replaced the mountain at the end. I would've anticipated it would've been more like this if we let them get their way! I would've cared less anyway (since I miss that Warner Communications logo anyway).

But all in all, wonderful. Just wonderful.

Be thankful that we have these wonderful prints of the Superman cartoons to watch, uncut (at least as uncut as they've ever been) except for slightly altered opening and closing soundtracks.
Better than what the PD companies can do to try turning NTA/U.M.& M. TV prints back to Paramount ones.

Fans of The Thief and the Cobbler have to get out-of-print laserdiscs and import DVDs just to see the film in widescreen, and not only is it still in Miramax butcher-job form, but the prints and transfers are often strangely substandard for a film released in 1995 (not to mention that all the Richard Williams scenes are from cruddy-looking dupe stock). If we want something closer to Richard Williams' original vision, we have to create our own edits using bootleg tapes of workprints to fill in the gaps, etc.
And that's what one guy managed to pull off, and I thank him for it.

Are you grateful now? It's not like they edited the CARTOONS themselves. It's as absurd as, say, not buying the Flintstones season sets simply because they removed the Screen Gems logos at the end. Sometimes you just need to focus on the 99% of something that's good, and try to blot out the 1% that's not.
If only the 1% would get a life, and by that, I'm talking about the guys who are into the "Closing Logo" (http://closinglogos.blogspot.com/) bit! Those guys are TERRIBLE! They even create their own logos to fulfill their thirst for more. I'm just glad I grew out of that mess.

A YouTube group I love visiting often to see more of their efforts. (http://www.youtube.com/group/scarylogoshrine)

[sumnernor]

Yesterday via hometheaterforum I saw that the Superman Ultimate Collection is out-of-print!!!:eek: You can look at the link:

http://thecinemaforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5005

Anyone have any ideas? Is Jerry Beck able to say any thing about this. Does this effect the PAL versions?? I'm waiting for a store - it is not in stock. Are there any GACers who have gotten the PAL version? Is there a problem with the PAL version like the NTSC version??? From the HTF posts , some think that perhaps it will be reissued.

[sumnernor]

There has been much talk about the Fleischer Superman cartoons in the Superman Ultimate Edition. I just have received the german PAL version and have noticed the following:

On Disk 4 are 9 cartoons from the Fleischer Studios but on Disk 7 (both the US and GER) versions are eight "1940 the famous studios" superman cartoons???? This is also true for the US edition. Why is it stated this way?

Also there are 3 cartoons on disk 13 (the extras containing "You will believe". The cartoons are: Super-Rabbit, Snauperman, and Stupor Duck.

[Treadwell]

Paramount wrested control of the studio from the Fleischers and renamed it Famous Studios. From that point on the cartoons were thus titled.