Minority opinions you have about animation [Archive]

BloodyChamp

07-24-2006, 09:56 PM

What are your opinions on animation in general that are considered to be a minority opinion?

I think the Chuck Jones Tom and Jerry's are some of the best cartoons ever, better than the original TnJ's and better than Wile and RR. I'm aware of Chuck's own words about the cartoons being nothing more than clones of the Wile/RR series but I just don't see it. Chuck had TnJ doing some of the wildest things imaginable and it was always funny. Would the Roadrunner ever go shopping in the fridge and buy Wile's nose lol!?! The TnJ's blow them and many other cartoons away. I wonder if Chuck took the high ground over that issue when asked only because he ended up being employed by WB again. Also, Chuck created the desert dwellers to start with and his name is accosiated with them always, unlike TnJ.

Also, Tex Avery's last cartoons over at Lantz were great. Three of them (leaving "I'm Cold" which is a good cartoon but not one of the best like the others) are imo among the best cartoons ever. Everybody kinda likes em but they've sort of been labeled as those last ones he did over at Lantz before he bailed. "Crazy Mixed Up Pup," for instance, is quite possibly my second favorite cartoon ever. I wish he'd have stayed...

Mr. Semaj

07-24-2006, 10:21 PM

I have similar feelings for Chuck Jones' Tom & Jerry shorts. They were actually a mass improvement over the Gene Deitch cartoons.

I sorta had a soft spot of Famous Studios animation, maybe because I grew up on their Popeye shorts. Not that the studio was without its faults, but their toons don't deserve to be ignored as is the case with many animation historians/critics.

I'm also a Robert McKimson fan, as I'd even rank him above a few other WB directors (ain't tellin' who).

Thad

07-24-2006, 10:43 PM

- Lantz's output on the whole is vastly underrated, and pretty much outshined anybody else besides the "Main 3". They were also the only studio to avoid UPA's plague.

- Famous Studios could be great, and had animators that could hold their own against the best of the West Coast (though they weren't given strong stories or characters). Aside from me and a few other posters, it's only Jerry Beck, Bob Jaques, Milton Knight, and Mark Mayerson who think so.

- Terrytoons: Same as above, though I feel less strongly.

- UPA sucks.

Thad

07-24-2006, 10:47 PM

I think the Chuck Jones Tom and Jerry's are some of the best cartoons ever, better than the original TnJ's and better than Wile and RR. I'm aware of Chuck's own words about the cartoons being nothing more than clones of the Wile/RR series but I just don't see it. Chuck had TnJ doing some of the wildest things imaginable and it was always funny. Would the Roadrunner ever go shopping in the fridge and buy Wile's nose lol!?! The TnJ's blow them and many other cartoons away. I wonder if Chuck took the high ground over that issue when asked only because he ended up being employed by WB again. Also, Chuck created the desert dwellers to start with and his name is accosiated with them always, unlike TnJ.

Part of the disliking of the Jones Tom & Jerry shorts is that they give off a strong pretentious feeling. Like Jones was too good for the characters and premises.

They are most definitley the best animated shorts of the time-period, and have lavish designs and music scores... But they aren't funny. It's like with Beany & Cecil, watching your favorite performer bomb on stage.

BloodyChamp

07-24-2006, 10:56 PM

Chuck Jones' TnJ's were funny very much of the time. Notice I'm not including Abe Levito's cartoons in this. Alot of people lump his in with Jones'. Even he had a few good ones though.

Chow Hound

07-24-2006, 11:46 PM

I think McKimson's cartoons were as good as Jones' & Freleng's.

Matthew Hunter

07-25-2006, 02:14 AM

Regarding Jones' Tom and Jerry:

I like these cartoons. I want to like them more than I do, but there's one setback...they're SLOOOOWWWW. They're beautifully animated, well designed, have great music, and some good gags. But the original Tom and Jerry by Hanna and Barbera and, to some extent Gene Deitch, were fast-paced cartoons. You didn't see too many close-ups of Tom making facial expressions of pain in the original cartoons...it was "whap!" then a scream, and boom, he was moving. The constant mugging was the POINT of Wile E. Coyote in a lot of ways, and it worked fine for him. But I think Jones got carried away doing it with Tom. I also don't care for Levitow's T&J shorts for much the same reason, except those were even slower! I sometimes find a hard time following the plot, as a lot of them are just a series of facial expressions. Jones proves himself a master of that, but at the price of the fun of T&J's wild energy.

They're great cartoons, they're just not great TOM and JERRY cartoons. I won't short-change them on their artistry though. They're special in their own weird way.

Patrick McCart

07-25-2006, 03:00 AM

My favorite T&J's are the Gene Deitch ones. Mainly Dicky Moe is my favorite of all of them.

Larry T

07-25-2006, 07:31 AM

Whenever an opinion is asked, be careful what you wish for ;) ....

1. First and foremost, the Universal/Lantz cartoons are the MOST UNDERRATED cartoons in the entire Hollywood studio lot ( and that includes the many wonderful Columbia Cartoons). I have been watching them, one-by-one, in order, and even into the late 1960s when other studios were floundering around clumsily with lameass stories and revolting designs, and the Lantz cartoons manage to maintain a funny, fast-paced, and classic look to them, more per release than any other studio. Aside from the occasional ethnic jokes (and the cartoons used many of them in these years, questionably, since gags like these should have been outgrown by then), they are universally enjoyable by all age groups.

2. The Chuck Jones T&Js are certainly beautiful to watch, well-designed, and all shiny and glorious, but they're simply NOT FUNNY. I agree with the previous statement that the timing is too slow- these cartoons just crawl along. HOWEVER, I am recalling that Jones said he ALWAYS FOCUSED ON DEVELOPING THE EMOTION, ACTING, AND CHARACTER in his cartoons, NOT the action (you can even see this in his early ones like "Joe Glow The Firefly", "Good Night, Elmer" and "The Good Egg" for example) and it seems that the more control he had over directing, the more tedious the cartoons became, due to this. There is a lot of attention given to Jerry's cuteness and Tom's foil- too much, in that it takes away some of the cartoon humour. But if Jones never concentrated so much on this, we never would have had his later great works like "The Grinch That Stole Christmas" and "Rikki-Tiki-Tavi" when he managed to coin this practice to a comfortable tee.

3. The Gene Deitch cartoons are not bad- no, really!! Again, it's just because we have the wonderful preceding H&B cartoons to compare them to- in themselves, they're kind of surreal, almost like the Fleischer cartoons. They need to be considered in their own class. I always liken them to a "Tom and Jerry bad dream", myself. The animation is bizarre and the other elements are almost cacophonic- but they're not really bad cartoons (and there are many examples of really BAD cartoons...)

4. I actually like Paramount/Famous cartoons. Again, it's important to look at them in a class of their own. They may have tried to emulate WB or Disney (never quite making it), but they had a classic venue of individuality and experimentation. Even though they are extremely repetitive and at times even tedious, the animation maintained a beautiful look about it due to the fantastic talents of the many artists there (Gentinella, Tyer, Tytla, Mufatti, Tendlar). They only needed to appeal to the audiences that they were intended for- so if you find Casper and Baby Huey cartoons uninteresting, well, think of the 5 - 10 year old's opinions of them- because that's the target audience they were intended for.

The Popeyes on the other hand were much diffrerent- and many of them outshined the studio's other output.

5. Anyone who doesn't like the Fleischer Talkartoons doesn't know how to appreciate the unconventional, unbridled creativity of an innovator at work ;) .

6. The UPA cartoons are good (sorry Thad, we're all entitled to our own opinions ;) ). They took a popular style and worked it creatively into a standalone, distinct look-and-feel of their work. They maintained an artistic quality about them and catered to the tastes of the times. They were so popular that every other studio (except one) tried to imitiate them, remember the old adage: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Besides, anyplace that Bob Cannon worked can't be all that bad :cool: .

Jon Cooke

07-25-2006, 07:45 AM

I agree 100% with Larry and Thad's opinions about Lantz and Famous.

As for myself, I think THE ADVENTURES OF ICABOD & MR. TOAD is one of the most overlooked Disney animated movies. IMO, both segments are the perfect length and never feel like they are dragging on forever. They have beautiful, funny character animation. I'd rather watch this than a few of the other Disney classics.

Bartman

07-25-2006, 08:26 AM

My turn, my turn:

- I have really grown to like the COLUMBIA cartoons! Some pick the Fox & Crow series to be their favorite shorts from this studio (I know I do), but I have found that many of their B & W entries are quite good, especially shorts like "Old Blackout Joe", "The Cocky Bantam", "The Vitamin G-Man" and "Case of the Screaming Bishop". They make lack the sharp humor one would come to expect from a WB or MGM cartoon, but they aren't bad shorts at all.

- I really dislike the Oswald Rabbit cartoons - I really do! I just don't find them funny or amusing in the least.

- With the exception of the Mr. Magoo series, I just can't sit through an entire UPA cartoon.

Thad

07-25-2006, 10:38 AM

Larry, here are some reasons I think UPA sucks:

1. They stripped the elements out of cartoons that made them appealing -exaggeration/ stretch and squash.
2. Took the fun out of cartoons – tried to do ‘serious cartoons’. (I believe that would be classified as an oxymoron)
3. Turned cartoon characters into moving graphics.
4. Tried to infuse pretentious art into animation.
5. Made it acceptable for everyone to do bad animation.
6. Made boring cartoons (with the exception of a few)

I don't buy for a minute that general audiences liked this mindless garbage. I think it was just the critics who loved these for some reason, and had sympathy for their run-in with HUAC and overlooked that these films were poorly written messes. The other studios had to copy them if they wanted to be in favor of the critics and art-world.

BTW, when coming up with a lot of these annecdotes, my friend's VCR crapped out after a tape of Mr. Magoo. Add this:

7. Their cartoons are harmful to your VCR.

Thad

07-25-2006, 10:41 AM

Also:

- I don't go for the earliest cartoons. Sorry. While I love Bosko and the Irv Spence-designed Flip the Frogs, and like some Mickey, they are all boring and interchangeable. The only other exception is Fleischer, who did weird cartoons just for weirdness' sake (and I'm not even a big fan of those). I wish Oswald and Scrappy would just burn in nitrate hell already.

Cartman

07-25-2006, 11:27 AM

I agree about UPA. They did some bad animations and even influenced other studios to use their style.
The UPA cartoons I do like are the Mr. Magoo cartoons and the TELL-TALE HEAD.

While I do enjoy the Wile E. Coyote/Roadrunner cartoons, I prefer to watch them in small dosages as they all use the same storyline.

And while I find most of the Pluto cartoons to be uninteresting, there are a few that I enjoy. Such cartoons include PLUTO'S QUIN-PUPLETS, IN DUTCH, and PLUTOPIA.

gdX

07-25-2006, 11:42 AM

Count me among the fans of the Deitch Tom & Jerry's... even if the toons look kinda strange, he 'got' T&J in a way that Jones never did... CJ's T&J were simply unfunny exercises in styling... a rare failure for him.

I like most of Deitch's work for that matter... he was a much-needed kick in the pants at Terry... possibly the only time they made a substantial move in innovation since their inception.

Lantz? -- great toons, but I don't think that's a minority opinion around here... I think it's the general public who has forgotten Woody and Co.

:tomcat: :jerry:

dandu

07-25-2006, 11:56 AM

I have a big softspot for black and white cartoons made in the late 1920's early 1930s, and I enjoy anything by Gene Deitch, even those Krazy Kat cartoons, as well as the more mainstream stuff you all tend to like.

Oh and of course Redrawns!

Jon Cooke

07-25-2006, 12:29 PM

- With the exception of the Mr. Magoo series, I just can't sit through an entire UPA cartoon.

I even have a hard time making it through most of the later Magoos. The earliest ones are the best stuff UPA did.

This brings me to another one of my minority opinions.

I actually like the 1960s made-for-TV Magoos better than most of the later theatrical ones! After reading so much bad stuff about them through the years, I was all prepared for the worst when Boomerang ran them a few years ago. To my surprise, I thought they were well done. They were short (about 5 min. each), funny, well designed (the designs reminded me alot of THE ALVIN SHOW), and they had a "who's who" of cartoon voice actors in the cast: Jim Backus, Mel Blanc, Stan Freberg, Bea Benadaret, Dal McKennon, and June Foray. :magoo:

Do-Do

07-25-2006, 12:59 PM

Well, I don't know about you but I actually like "Fish Tales". Not a lotta people do.

BloodyChamp

07-25-2006, 01:11 PM

Chow Hound

07-25-2006, 01:23 PM

Sogturtle

07-25-2006, 01:57 PM

Chuck Jones did a "Rikki-Tiki-Tavi" cartoon!?!?! I read that book back in the day. That sounds like a cartoon character that was tailor made for him to direct. Is it on DVD or tape somewhere?

BloodyChamp~

Don't know if it will interest you, but besides "Rikki-Tikki-Tavi", Chuck also tackled Kipling's "Mowgli's Brothers" and "The White Seal"... He made them back in the mid Seventies after the success of the "Cricket..." toons of his (i.e. he was more bankable after them).

The thing I always wanted to see, was Chuck editing the three Kipling works together and releasing them as a feature...:cool: A friend of mine way-back-when said of that idea "Ohhhhhh that would make Disney REAL unhappy :eek:!!!" I envisioned it being entitled "Chuck Jones' Much More Faithful Take On Kipling's Jungle Book" ;):p.

Thad

07-25-2006, 02:02 PM

Aw, come on, Tim, the world wouldn't be the same without Phil Harris' "Bear Necessities". ;)

Mr. Semaj

07-25-2006, 02:13 PM

The only UPA cartoons I've ever seen were the Gerald McBoing-Boing shorts. But I agree with the part about its simplistic artwork having a negative impact on contemporary animation.

(Semi-OT)

For those who care, are you familiar with The Fairly OddParents? I like watching it, but everything about the art is so deliberately flat, angular, and geometric, as if they only went as far as the basics of drawing. Seeing as how some of that rubbed off into Danny Phantom, I'm guessing that's Butch Hartman's trademark style.

For Dexter's Lab and The Powerpuff Girls, their designs have always been simplistic. But when people like Craig McCracken, Paul Rudish, Rob Renzetti, and Genndy Tartakovsky were working of them, they had a better sense of structure. It was around the time both series were changed, when they were both succeeded by Chris Savino, Dave Smith, and Paul Stec while McCracken, Rudish, and Tartakovsky went off on different projects, the colors became brighter, and the artistic improvements the two shows made over time was demolished.

The thing about UPA's influence was that some of those who followed it, even today seem to think that they didn't need any formal artistic skills to work in animation.

That 70s Mom

07-25-2006, 02:21 PM

It's great to see other Deitch Tom & Jerry fans coming out of the closet! To me, they're "so bad they're good". I agree, they were surreal, as if someone just told a bunch of foreigners to make violent cat and mouse cartoons. (Sorry, I didn't like the Chucks at all.)

You can add me to the Famous fan club too. I especially like the original songs. Famous' music is very underrated.

Larry T

07-25-2006, 04:02 PM

To me, they're "so bad they're good"....

You can add me to the Famous fan club too. I especially like the original songs. Famous' music is very underrated.

That hits the nail on the head- the Deitch Tom and Jerrys are so unpleasant and bizarre, they actually become interesting... well put, 70s Mom!

Add me into the group for those who like the Famous Sing-a-longs as well. There are a great many songs I would never know if it weren't for those cartoons.

Plus, I want to give one hurrah for Buddy :buddy: . I do like the Buddy cartoons. Yes, he's bland, and no, he doesn't stack up against characters with more personality like Bosko or Daffy- but the cartoons are really quite enjoyable in a naive, stupid, over-simplistic way. Buddy is like vanilla ice cream- not attractive on its own but refreshing in a single-faceted manner.

nickramer

07-25-2006, 04:11 PM

Sogturtle

07-25-2006, 05:11 PM

That hits the nail on the head- the Deitch Tom and Jerrys are so unpleasant and bizarre, they actually become interesting... well put, 70s Mom!

Add me into the group for those who like the Famous Sing-a-longs as well. There are a great many songs I would never know if it weren't for those cartoons.

Plus, I want to give one hurrah for Buddy :buddy: . I do like the Buddy cartoons. Yes, he's bland, and no, he doesn't stack up against characters with more personality like Bosko or Daffy- but the cartoons are really quite enjoyable in a naive, stupid, over-simplistic way. Buddy is like vanilla ice cream- not attractive on its own but refreshing in a single-faceted manner.

Yeah Larry, I'll heartily second your hurrah for Buddy :buddy:!!! The cartoons are enjoyable on their own grounds. To compare them to a 1945 Bugs or Daffy is essentially like throwing a welterweight contender in with a world's champion heavyweight;)... Buddy simply needs to be viewed in the context of what his competition was back then. When put next to the mid-30's Oswalds, Krazy Kats, Willie Whoppers etc., the bulk his cartoons actually hold up very nicely.

Whilst the Deitch Tom and Jerrys I personally view as an ideal lesson of "this is what can happen with a cheapo runaway cartoon production". They SHOULD be prerequisite viewing for ALL executives of major studios who have even the FAINTEST idea of making new cartoons featuring classic characters!

Thad

07-25-2006, 05:36 PM

Thad, I hate to tell you this, but could you please give this UPA bashing a rest. Everyone has a right to thier opinion and there are some like me who happen to like these cartoons even if they were trying to be serious. There's is a reason why people are upset of Columbia not releasing these films.

Nic,

Will you please stop telling people who disagree with you to give it a rest?

I think UPA SUCKS.

Feel free to disagree with it. Lighten up, bud, it's not like I'm saying they're aimed at homosexuals or something to that assenine degree.

Thad

07-25-2006, 05:37 PM

I can't stand Buddy either. What bland, pasty, boring cartoons. The second worst era of Warner animation (first and foremost being 1964-1969).

BloodyChamp

07-25-2006, 06:44 PM

barnyarddawg

07-25-2006, 06:45 PM

I like the 30s cartoons. If anything, a lot of them have camp value. I love the unmotivated mustachioed villains. Five and a half minutes of singing and dancing, a villain pops out for no reason,"MMM HA HA HA HA!" steals the girl, hero saves the day. Nobody cares. It's so anemic it's got to be funny. :buddy:

Thad

07-25-2006, 06:47 PM

The Fleischer Color Classics were phenominal, with a few exceptions. Anybody who doesn't want to JUST CRY over "Play Safe" is heartless! I watch cartoons to laugh, in general, but one that gets inside you like those did are good. That's the thing-there are ALOT of "happy" cartoons but alot of them just don't hit home. Those Color Classics did, as did "Little Match Girl," "Peace on Earth," "There's Good Boos Tonight" and more.

Am I on crack or did somebody post about a Magoo cartoon once where he ends up having to come to terms with his nearsightedness? Anyone care to touch on that one?

Well you're on crack for your comment over the Color Classics;), but there is a Magoo short where he realizes that his nearsightedness has caused him to mistake a walrus for his friend. It's "Fuddy Duddy Buddy". He then exclaims "I LIKE him!", and continues to pal around with the walrus.

Chow Hound

07-25-2006, 06:50 PM

I like the later ('42 to '64) WB cartoons, which is a minority opinion on this board but not among the general population. I guess it depends on which minority we're talking about. I think they get better and better up until about '46, then plateau until the last ones in '64. I won't watch any WB cartoons before 1940 unless it's to see the first cartoon of a famous character, and that I will probably only do once in my life.

barnyarddawg

07-25-2006, 07:37 PM

UPA never seemed to successfully blend their environments with their animations. I'm all for experimentation, but it doesn't quite gel.

Cartoons that were influenced by the UPA style, such as Symphony in Slang and Toot, Whistle, Plunk and Boom make it work much better.

There's only a few UPAs that I like, but I never say to myself, "I feel like watching Unicorn in the Garden today."

BloodyChamp

07-25-2006, 08:49 PM

Thad, are you really Woody Woodpecker???

You always trash the happy cartoons and you never shut up. You'd die for Walter Lantz. But we just can't hate you! Busted Woody!

Bartman

07-25-2006, 09:25 PM

OK, BloodyChamp - that's the second time you've called Thad "Woody Woodpecker" - are you expecting some sort of reply?

It wasn't funny the first time...:woody:

See? Even Woody thinks so!!:p

nickramer

07-25-2006, 09:28 PM

Nic,

Will you please stop telling people who disagree with you to give it a rest?

I think UPA SUCKS.

Feel free to disagree with it. Lighten up, bud, it's not like I'm saying they're aimed at homosexuals or something to that assenine degree.
Okay, I get the picture. But do me a favor: if the cartoons ever get on DVD(probably never), could you please not do the commentaries?

BloodyChamp

07-25-2006, 10:00 PM

OK, BloodyChamp - that's the second time you've called Thad "Woody Woodpecker" - are you expecting some sort of reply?

It wasn't funny the first time...:woody:

See? Even Woody thinks so!!:p

When did I do it before?

Toonami

07-25-2006, 11:55 PM

I dislike most Disney output

I like Jones' Tom & Jerry's

I think Spumco and APC cartoons are the greatest cartoons in 30 years.

I'm a HUGE McKimson (as a director) fan.

I'm not a fan of early rubberhose cartoons

I HATE Tiny Toons.

I prefer Fat Elmer.

The second worst era of Warner animation (first and foremost being 1964-1969

At least the 60's had Daffy!

Javeman

07-26-2006, 12:42 AM

Thad

07-26-2006, 01:19 AM

I'll just say this:

"Olive Oyl for President" is one of the best cartoons ever made. If there was one Famous short that should've made it into "The 50 Greatest Cartoons of all Time" it should have been that one.

That's an interesting choice for Best Famous cartoon. I'd have picked "Much Ado About Mutton" or "The Hungry Goat"!

JPox

07-26-2006, 01:29 AM

I like Chuck Jones' T&Js as well.
I do not like most of Disney's shorts. I do however like Goofy's.
I like the Looney Tunes that featured characterized Native Americans. Being that I am an Aboriginal myself. "Whoa Injuns! Whoa!"
Gun play is funny. When put in the animated world of course.
Tex Avery is my hero.
Looney Tunes need to be back in theatres.

Mr. Semaj

07-26-2006, 01:48 AM

I prefer Little Audrey over Little Lulu. :audrey:

angilbas

07-26-2006, 04:21 AM

It's great to see other Deitch Tom & Jerry fans coming out of the closet! To me, they're "so bad they're good". I agree, they were surreal, as if someone just told a bunch of foreigners to make violent cat and mouse cartoons.

Hear, hear! Deitch's T&Js were a mixture of bad and good, often with crudely drawn characters on nicely detailed backgrounds. The hollow music contributed to their weird atmosphere. Deitch deserves a pat for his cartoonization (Carmen Get It) of Georges Bizet's famous opera.

-Tony

Duck Dodgers

07-26-2006, 08:00 AM

That's an interesting choice for Best Famous cartoon. I'd have picked "Much Ado About Mutton" or "The Hungry Goat"!

They're mine too|!

Have you seen the pictures from my restored copies of both cartoons on my blog?;)

Another terrific Famous is "Cartoons Ain't Human".

Leviathan

07-26-2006, 09:54 AM

I prefer Little Audrey over Little Lulu. :audrey:

Hey, me too! :audrey:

barnyarddawg

07-26-2006, 11:26 AM

I prefer Little Audrey over Little Lulu. :audrey:

Liking either one of those is a minority opinion :p

J Lee

07-26-2006, 12:01 PM

Liking either one of those is a minority opinion :p

The Lulu cartoons where she battles an adult authority figure, like in "Bargain County Attack" (my all-time favorite Famous Studios short) or "The Dog Show-Off" are probably the best examples of Famous figuring out how to use the Warners gag style while still putting their own spin on the cartoons, and they do stand up to anything being done on the west coast in the mid-1940s (even most of the dream sequence cartoons avoid the repetition the Audrey dream cartoons fell into after their first year).

But most of the pre-1949 Famous shorts have something going for them -- it's just that outside of the Popeye cartoons, hardly anyone's seen the majority of them since stations started dropping the NTA package in the late 1960s, and Paramount's selling off of their 1950s characters at the end of that decade means they have less incentive today to market those cartoons than they even do Terrytoons, since Viacom at least has ownership of Mighty Mouse and Heckle and Jeckyl (well, Paramount may still own Blackie the Lamb or Henry the Rooster, since neither one of them were in the Harveytoons package, but odds are they won't be planning some CGI revival as with Mighty Mouse anytime in the future).

Der Captain

07-27-2006, 07:33 PM

I'm one of the very very few defenders of the "Captain and the Kids" cartoons. Actually, I don't like all of them, just the ones that stick closely to the theme of the Rudolf Dirks strip (Hans and Fritz raise hell). "Buried Treasure", "Winning Ticket", and "Mama's New Hat" are really quite good and the animation is outstanding. The cockfight in "Honduras Hurricane" is a nice piece of work.

I find a lot of the Disney "Silly Symphonies" hard to stomach. All those dimple-faced cherubs! "Water Babies"! Ick! Same goes for a lot of their imitators in the thirties. (Don't even come near me with a Fleischer "Color Classic". I have mace!)

God, I absolutely HATE those Fleischer "Superman" cartoons. Somebody in "The Fifty Greatest Cartoons" raved about their great charm. WHAT FRIGGIN CHARM? The characters are all stiffer than Max and Dave's deceased bodies. I've seen test patterns with more charm!

Many of those Screen Gems cartoons are fun! I've discussed my favorites in other posts. And the Famous cartoons of the forties (ONLY the ones from the forties) are often surprisingly good.

UPA cartoons? Love 'em! The language of cartoons needed to expand and how long can you keep watching funny animals blow each other up? "Rooty Toot Toot" is a masterpiece. Funny AND artistic. - On the other hand, Disney's highly regarded "Toot, Whistle, Plunk and Boom" bores me to death. It plays like a pseudo-Hubley. Uncle Walt really didn't want to do that kind of animation and it shows.

And Oh yeah! I got sick of "Animaniacs" about the umpteenth time Yakko made a dumb joke followed by a shot of somebody doing a slow burn. Just stop it please.

Mr. Semaj

07-27-2006, 07:42 PM

Disney is sorta the last studio you'd expect to imitate the very studio that was rebelling against them.

The cartoon Pig is Pigs baffled me when I was younger. Made me think that the artists forgot how to draw!

nickramer

07-27-2006, 07:56 PM

I never got into the Superman cartoons either. Though I do admit they are well animated and I do like the inspired Bruce Timm shows.

I could never understand the appeal of most Van Buran cartoons. Some even put me to sleep.

I really like the Betty Boop cartoons with Grampy. They were almost the only good post code Betty Boop cartoons.

I happen to like UPA cartoons, even if they are not as funny as other cartoons. I even think most of the imataters were great as well (except the post 1957 Tom and Jerry MGM cartoons).

jonfacebass

07-27-2006, 08:24 PM

I think that bob clampett had the best understanding of Bugs Bunny. And Chuck Jones, who is known for his great bugs and daffy cartoons, really just didn't get it. He made some great cartoons (Whats opera doc) but his Daffy Duck cartoons are unwatchable. Duck Amuck is one of the worst portrayals of Daffy that I have ever seen.

Also, I think Frank Tashlin was better than all the other directors, except Clampett.

I can't think of anything else. I like classic animation from most of the studios -- I love Disney, WB, ect.

rodney

07-27-2006, 08:29 PM

Friz Freleng is my favorite director. His animators relied more on stock poses than some of the other directors, but I think he made the best use of their talents. I think that when it comes to Clampett, the parts are often greater than the whole.

I also think that Beany & Cecil is very overrated.

David Gerstein

07-27-2006, 09:44 PM

Minority opinions?
Hmm—I'm a nutter for Oswald cartoons.
I'm also very fond of Mintz's Krazy Kat and Scrappy, at least up until 1934 (when the quality takes a nose dive).

mmtper

07-27-2006, 11:04 PM

I don't have minority opinions, really. I'm a go with the flow, middle of the road, vanilla ice cream and Miracle Whip on white toast kind of guy, pretty easy to please. That may be my minority opinion: that I think TV cartoons of the past 15 years or so have been pretty good & funny, sort of a Silver Age period. I liked the Simpsons, Rocko's Modern Life, Pinky & the Brain, Rugrats, Johnny Bravo, Jimmy Neutron, Foster's Home, the Butch Hartmann and Federator Stuff, the Bruce Timm superhero stuff. (SpongeBob & pals were the only characters that I thought the Warner/Termite Terrace boys could've productively worked with, though). They sure beat the toons that were made in my formative 1965-1985 years, gosh, they were unfunny & dull (with very few exceptions). The past generation of TV kids had it lucky in that respect.

I'm afraid I really dislike the vast majority of the Paramount/Famous toons, especially after 1945 or so. In my feeble little mind I imagine the two New York studios, Famous & Terrytoons, as clowns at a once-mighty-but-now-run-down circus, trying to entertain the kids. The Famous clown has a snazzier, better tailored clown suit, but he's a coarse, somewhat brutal & sadistic man who's forcefully telling jokes but has no sense of humor. The Terrytoon clown has got a cheaper, threadbare suit but actually has some whimsy and occasionally makes the kids laugh, even manages a few balloon animals, but he runs out of material pretty quickly and keeps repeating himself.

UPA's okay, it helps if you can try and put yourself in a 1951 frame of mind to appreciate what a hip item they must have initially seemed, visually & musically. They were so widely imitated that their impact has been dilluted for us today

Geezil

07-27-2006, 11:21 PM

With the possible exceptions of Bunny & Claude, Luno, and both '30s/'40s characters named Gabby, no major studio cartoon releases truly suck.

Therefore, the UPA shorts do not suck.

But the Earth does. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suction)

J. J. Hunsecker

07-27-2006, 11:22 PM

Whenever I read about the UPA cartoons critics seem to think they were very adult. Strange, since to me the vast majority of those cartoons seem like they were meant for children. Heck some of them were even adapted from kid's literature, such as Madelaine and Gerald McBoing Boing. It's only a rare exception that a UPA cartoon seemed like it was more adult, like Rooty Toot Toot and The Tell-Tale Heart.

I also hate many of the geometric and arty designs used in the UPA cartoons, too. Some of them just look plain ugly to me. Yet those cartoons are praised for thier ground-breaking graphics. Go figure.

In contrast, I always felt that the Warner cartoons were unfairly classified as kiddy fodder. I always thought they were far more adult than most of the UPA shorts.

All that said, I do like a lot of the UPA cartoons (mostly from the late 40's and early 50's). It's just that I feel they've been overrated, at the expense of the other cartoon studios.

J. J. Hunsecker

07-27-2006, 11:30 PM

I love Tex Avery's MGM cartoons, but I always thought that there were some real corny jokes mixed in with the great ones. I think Clampett surpassed Avery, too, in terms of anything-for-a-laugh wildness and outrageous 'takes', the very things Avery is known and praised for. Avery never seemed to be too interested in character based comedy, either.

Avery seemed to rely on "spot-gag" cartoons like a crutch. Those type of cartoons always highlight Avery's weakness, yet contain none of his strenghts.

(And now I'll duck from the brickbats headed my way...)

BloodyChamp

07-27-2006, 11:37 PM

The thing is that Avery made corny stuff funny. He made cartoons cartoony. He did make alot of spot gag cartoons but even his mediocre one smoke every other attempt out there.

oceansoul

07-28-2006, 03:15 AM

- I think that some cartoons are way, way, waaay too much overrated. Especially Duck amuck, Duck dodgers, What's opera doc, but also cartoons like I love to singa, Porky in Wackyland, Hillbilly hare, Long-haired hare, Knighty knight Bugs or Birds anonymus.

- Robert McKimson is very underrated. He may sucked at the late fifties and the early sixties, but most of his cartoons are gems. Some of them are sadly overlooked like Dog collared, Daffy Duck hunt, Of rice and hen, Rabbit's kin and others.

- I think the Daffy/Speedy pairing wasn't that bad. Of course they are not quite as good as WB cartoons from the heyday era, but some of them are really entertaining. IMO the less would be more in this case, 25 cartoons were way too much, 10 would be enough.

Duck Dodgers

07-28-2006, 04:30 AM

- Robert McKimson is very underrated. He may sucked at the late fifties and the early sixties, but most of his cartoons are gems. Some of them are sadly overlooked like Dog collared, Daffy Duck hunt, Of rice and hen, Rabbit's kin and others.

In my opinion, he is even too much overrated. It is Davis that would deserve more attention. I like many of the Forties cartoons of McKimson, but I cannot stand the 90% of the rest of his production.
His best cartoons are,IMHO, "Rebel Rabbit", "Hillbilly Hare" and "Walky Talky Hawky".
"A Fractured Leghorn" and "Early to Bet" are very good too.
Some other Foghorn Leghorn cartoons could be worth of a mention.
"The High and the Flighty" was a favorite of mine when I was a kid.

oceansoul

07-28-2006, 05:52 AM

In my opinion, he is even too much overrated. It is Davis that would deserve more attention. I like many of the Forties cartoons of McKimson, but I cannot stand the 90% of the rest of his production.
His best cartoons are,IMHO, "Rebel Rabbit", "Hillbilly Hare" and "Walky Talky Hawky".
"A Fractured Leghorn" and "Early to Bet" are very good too.
Some other Foghorn Leghorn cartoons could be worth of a mention.
"The High and the Flighty" was a favorite of mine when I was a kid.

IMO "Early to bet" is an average cartoon. I prefer "It's hummer time" from this kind of plot.
The only cartoon which is overrated from McKimson is Hillbilly hare.

Dan Porceddu

07-28-2006, 07:11 AM

Alright:

I think "Duck Dodgers" (and to a lesser extent other Chuck Jones Daffy/Porky shorts from the same period) is overrated
I like the Chuck Jones Tom & Jerry's, and even have a soft spot for some of the Gene Deitch shorts as well ("Buddies Thicker Than Water" is one of my favorite T&J shorts of all time)
I find most cartoons made before, say, 1935 (this is a completely arbitrary cut-off, don't hold it against me) usually pretty boring
I like the 1950s Goofy cartoons more than the 1940s ones
One of my favorite Disney full length features is "The Sword and the Stone"
Although I own the first three seasons, I can't say that I'm a particularly big fan of "Rocky & Bullwinkle"
Back in 2003, everyone seemed to have a fairly positive opinion of "Looney Tunes: Back in Action." I'm one of the few that still does.

Thad

07-28-2006, 09:03 AM

A few more:

- Friz Freleng was a great director, but the weak animation separates him from the 'really great' category. I can't stand the way Gerry Chiniquy draws the characters.

- Beany and Cecil and DePatie-Freleng cartoons are overrated.

- 50s Disney shorts are usually better than the ones from the 30s/40s.

- "Snow White" is grossly overrated. I can name a dozen Disney features I'd place before it.

- Clampett's black-and-white Porkys were amazing from 1938 to about mid-1939. From then on, they are for the most part are garbage.

Marty26

07-28-2006, 10:06 AM

That hits the nail on the head- the Deitch Tom and Jerrys are so unpleasant and bizarre, they actually become interesting... well put, 70s Mom!

Add me into the group for those who like the Famous Sing-a-longs as well. There are a great many songs I would never know if it weren't for those cartoons.

Plus, I want to give one hurrah for Buddy :buddy: . I do like the Buddy cartoons. Yes, he's bland, and no, he doesn't stack up against characters with more personality like Bosko or Daffy- but the cartoons are really quite enjoyable in a naive, stupid, over-simplistic way. Buddy is like vanilla ice cream- not attractive on its own but refreshing in a single-faceted manner.

I totally agree with you. When put into the context of the time period of his cartoons, Buddy was fairly decent. You need to remember, up until around the late-30s/early-40s, cartoons were supposed to have a cutesy star that everybody would naturally love (hence Mickey Mouse's popularity). Plus, cartoons were really just cute seven minute shorts depicting some kind of daily life situation in a silly way (such as Bosko going to the zoo with Honey). Compared with even the WB cartoons from around 1941, Buddy pales. But if you remember what cartoons were like during his time, he holds up reasonably well.

Jon Cooke

07-28-2006, 10:10 AM

]...DePatie-Freleng cartoons are overrated.

Overrated by who exactly? Do fans of Hoot Kloot, Dogfather, or Blue Racer even exist? :p

Jeff

07-28-2006, 10:27 AM

I can't say I'm a fan of Buddy cartoons, as much as I'd like to since he's often the "underdog". There are a few Buddy shorts that I do enjoy, but for the most part, stacking the Buddy shorts up against the even earlier Bosko shorts, the amount of personality and energy exuding from Bosko makes Buddy severely pale and bland in comparison. And compare the Buddy shorts of the same time period with Popeye shorts...

There truly was something to enjoy in the Harman-Ising shorts of the early thirties, and I guess that's probably not a "minority opinion" on this board. My 2 and a half year old kids seem to really enjoy such shorts as Sinkin' In The Bathtub, Pagan Moon, We're In The Money whenever I put them on the tube.

Does liking Sniffles qualify as a "minority opinion"? If so, count me in that minority. I don't LOVE Sniffles, but I do enjoy his cartoons. Of course my kids DO love Sniffles...

Another possible "minority opinion": I'm actually not a really big fan of the early Tex Avery shorts. They're ok, and they're certainly responsible for the transformation of the studio, but if I had a choice of watching Frank Tashlin shorts of the thirties or Tex Avery's shorts of the thirties, I'd pick Tash. I do like some of Tex's stuff that he did in the forties: the Bugs Bunny shorts and the Red/Wolf shorts, but unfortunately that's all I've seen of the MGM side of Tex. From what I've heard, I am really missing out and I intend to rectify that situation soon...

Thad

07-28-2006, 10:28 AM

Overrated by who exactly? Do fans of Hoot Kloot, Dogfather, or Blue Racer even exist? :p

I mean everything they did. Except for the first few Panthers by Freleng, the output was assemblyline and mediocre.

Leviathan

07-28-2006, 10:46 AM

Overrated by who exactly? Do fans of Hoot Kloot, Dogfather, or Blue Racer even exist? :p

For the Blue Racer, i think his shorts popping up on Boomerang (after years of neglect) probably called some attention to him and created some fans.

BloodyChamp

07-28-2006, 02:24 PM

I'd become a fan if he'd eat that annoying fly, or be or whatever it is.

Matthew Hunter

07-28-2006, 02:46 PM

I totally agree with you. When put into the context of the time period of his cartoons, Buddy was fairly decent. You need to remember, up until around the late-30s/early-40s, cartoons were supposed to have a cutesy star that everybody would naturally love (hence Mickey Mouse's popularity). Plus, cartoons were really just cute seven minute shorts depicting some kind of daily life situation in a silly way (such as Bosko going to the zoo with Honey). Compared with even the WB cartoons from around 1941, Buddy pales. But if you remember what cartoons were like during his time, he holds up reasonably well.

I kind of like Buddy too! Sure, they're not as funny or exciting as the later WB cartoons, but if you really look at them, they weren't trying to be. Heck, Porky Pig didn't even exist yet! There are some great Buddy cartoons that deserve more attention: "Buddy's Beer Garden", "Buddy's Showboat", "Buddy's Adventures" , "Viva Buddy" and "Buddy and Towser" are particularly good. Buddy as a character wasn't meant to be a laugh riot, his best cartoons show him as a happy little guy trying to cheer up an unhappy world (see "Buddy's Adventures".) Remember, audiences liked to see this type of character in his day...it WAS still the Great Depression.:buddy:

Matthew Hunter

07-28-2006, 02:49 PM

Der Captain

07-28-2006, 06:45 PM

I think those Peanuts cartoons are waaaaaaaayyyyyyy overrated! Charlie Brown and Snoopy were great comic strip characters but, for the most part, not great animated characters. There are some standout scenes, like the Red Baron sequence in "Great Pumpkin" and the kooky dancing in "Charlie Brown Xmas", but most of it is drivel that seldom captured the true charm of the strip. Does anyone really want to see "Life is a circus, Charlie Brown" again?

Treadwell

07-28-2006, 11:29 PM

I think those Peanuts cartoons are waaaaaaaayyyyyyy overrated!

Gotta agree. I love the Christmas special, although it's hard to say how much of that is tainted by nostalgia.

But even childhood memories haven't rescued any of the others I've seen again. The voice acting is horrible, scenes are interminably drawn out and filled with unnecessary action and dialogue. They suffer from characters standing still and saying what they're going to do, then doing it, then standing still again to describe the action again. Horribly stagey. And the later educational ones even further failed at being in the least bit entertaining. Marci leading the gang around a museum and blathering on about what they're looking at; GOOD GRIEF!

My minority opinion: ELMER'S CANDID CAMERA is a Bugs Bunny cartoon.

rodney

07-29-2006, 07:13 AM

DePatie-Freleng cartoons are overrated.

My (maybe) minority opinion: A 1971 Depatie-Freleng short is award worthy compared to what was going on at Lantz at the same time.

Thad

07-29-2006, 11:45 AM

My (maybe) minority opinion: A 1971 Depatie-Freleng short is award worthy compared to what was going on at Lantz at the same time.

Perfectly true, but that still isn't saying much. Like I said, I like the earliest Panthers by Freleng, and add the Inspector shorts as well, but that's about it. For some reason I used to like the Ant and the Aardvark, but I can't stomach them anymore.

Der Captain

07-29-2006, 12:45 PM

Gotta agree. I love the Christmas special, although it's hard to say how much of that is tainted by nostalgia.

But even childhood memories haven't rescued any of the others I've seen again. The voice acting is horrible, scenes are interminably drawn out and filled with unnecessary action and dialogue. They suffer from characters standing still and saying what they're going to do, then doing it, then standing still again to describe the action again. Horribly stagey. And the later educational ones even further failed at being in the least bit entertaining. Marci leading the gang around a museum and blathering on about what they're looking at; GOOD GRIEF!

.

By the time the gang was appearing in "Met Life" ads, I wanted to shout "How much money do you need, Schulz?"

Jack G.

07-29-2006, 01:09 PM

"Rooty Toot Toot" is a masterpiece. Funny AND artistic. - On the other hand, Disney's highly regarded "Toot, Whistle, Plunk and Boom" bores me to death. It plays like a pseudo-Hubley. Uncle Walt really didn't want to do that kind of animation and it shows.
Rooty Toot Toot is awesome. UPA just wanted to do a different thing. The designer was king there as upposed to the animator. Because critics raved, other studios were influenced to go that way which shouldn't happen. It's kinda like when Fleishcer started to immitate Disney - they moved away from what they did best.

Walt was away in Europe doing research for Disneyland when Toot, Whistle, Plunk and Boom was being made. When he came back and saw it, he said, "Don't do anymore of that UPA crap."

Minority opinion? I really like Flip the Frog cartoons.

I also will take Pink Panther cartoons over a Spumco cartoon any day.

Leviathan

07-29-2006, 01:13 PM

My minority opinion: ELMER'S CANDID CAMERA is a Bugs Bunny cartoon.

I'd agree with that to an extent. The wabbit's just about reaching his peak and it'll only take another cartoon to push him completely to his mature form.

MY even more minority opinion: Chuck Jones should get co-creation/development credit for Elmer based on CANDID CAMERA, because Elmer's basic design, Arthur Q. Bryan's voice, and at least one of his famous quotes ("Wabbit Twacks!") are all in place there. It's to Elmer what A WILD HARE is to Bugs.

frizfrelengfan

07-29-2006, 05:45 PM

These are my minority opinions, although after reading this whole thread, it seems there's no such thing as a minority opinion, as the opinions are all over the map.

Friz Freleng is as great a director as the other WB directors. His musical cartoons are perfect.
Gene Deitch is a good director. I enjoy his Tom & Jerry shorts and from what I recall, his Terrytoons.
I like the happy, bouncy cartoons from the '30's.
I'm not a real big fan of classic Disney, although it's probably because I didn't see a lot of it in my childhood; it wasn't all over the tube like cartoons from other studios. I love the new Pixar stuff, though.
"Peanuts" is not funny. I find neither the comic strip nor the TV specials interesting. I wish the newspaper would stop running "classic" Peanuts and replace it with something better. Charles Schulz has been dead how long now?
I hated Famous Studios cartoons when I was a child (ironic, because they were made for children, while the WB cartoons that I loved then were made for adults), but now as an adult I find that they have some redeeming value. I think it's because most of what I saw as a child was from the Harveytoons package, while what I watch now is from the UM&M TV package before Famous really went down the tubes. And Winston Sharples' music is the best in cartoons besides Carl Stalling's.
"The Simpsons" is dumb.
[Comment about UPA deleted - I can see flames coming out of my computer and I don't want to dump gasoline on them]

Thad

07-29-2006, 05:48 PM

BloodyChamp

07-29-2006, 06:06 PM

Just a question... This is a thread for "minority opinions". How do you guys justify bringing up UPA not sucking when all everyone seems to do is go ga-ga all over those cartoons?

"Madeline" sucks and "Tell Tale Heart" is boring. The UPA shorts were a novelty and have dated badly. That's it.

Because you said UPA SUCKS.

I happen to agree pretty much.

Thad

07-29-2006, 06:10 PM

I happen to agree pretty much.

Thank God!

Leviathan

07-29-2006, 06:12 PM

Because you said UPA SUCKS.

I happen to agree pretty much.

Hell, i haven't even seen too many UPA cartoons, and i can concur.

Mr. Semaj

07-29-2006, 06:24 PM

Walt was away in Europe doing research for Disneyland when Toot, Whistle, Plunk and Boom was being made. When he came back and saw it, he said, "Don't do anymore of that UPA crap."

That kinda makes you wonder exactly how involved Walt was with short subjects around that time?

Sogturtle

07-29-2006, 06:28 PM

nickramer

07-29-2006, 06:42 PM

Just a question... This is a thread for "minority opinions". How do you guys justify bringing up UPA not sucking when all everyone seems to do is go ga-ga all over those cartoons?

"Madeline" sucks and "Tell Tale Heart" is boring. The UPA shorts were a novelty and have dated badly. That's it.

Thad, I asked you before. Could you please give this UPA bashing a rest? It's starting to sound like you are trying to have the other members here change their opinions. Besides, it's getting very annoying.

Thad

07-29-2006, 06:43 PM

Thad, I asked you before could you please give this UPA bashing a rest? It's starting to sound like you are trying to have the other members here change their opinions. Besides it's getting very annoying.

No to all of the above.

nickramer

07-29-2006, 06:47 PM

No to all of the above.

I'm starting to wonder how you have your own part of this site since you are acting very rude.

Mark J

07-29-2006, 06:47 PM

Besides, it's getting very annoying.

Annoying to you, not to those who don't like UPA cartoons and like to see them bashed.

Thad

07-29-2006, 06:51 PM

Nic,
Why not come up with some reasons to defend UPA instead of calling me rude and telling me to be quiet?

nickramer

07-29-2006, 06:55 PM

It's because you always come up with a comeback for each person who happens to like UPA cartoons. I'm starting to think this was a mistake to join this fourm since it seems like right now most people just keep complaining more than appeciate classic cartoons.

Sean Gaffney

07-29-2006, 07:17 PM

I can appreciate that One Froggy Evening is a fantastic cartoon, and understand exactly the things it does right.

I just can't stand it personally.

Leviathan

07-29-2006, 07:23 PM

While listening to Melendez's commentary on "The Big Snooze" (on which he animated) I was struck by his damning it and all of the Warner's cartoons as having BAD animation! And his repeating that several times!

I'm sorry Mr. Melendez, but on that you're wildly, dead-wrong... The Warner's cartoons feature GREAT, COMEDIC animation and wonderful personality-character animation... While that of UPA (and the Melendez studio) is pretty much an argument for "HEY!!! That could be done JUST AS WELL in live action, if not better, why animate it?".

That's News to me! However, with that in mind It's both ironic and eerily fitting that Mr. Melendez would see fit to do commentary on a couple of Clampett cartoons... WITH JOHN KRICFALUSI of all people. Didn't John call UPA's animation "boring" in one of his interviews?

rodney

07-29-2006, 07:54 PM

Thad, I asked you before. Could you please give this UPA bashing a rest? It's starting to sound like you are trying to have the other members here change their opinions. Besides, it's getting very annoying.

Not nearly as annoying as your apparent problem with a person expressing their views (especially in a thread that's asking for controversial views). I assume you're also the same guy who's complained on his blog about his having negative views about the UPA output.

rodney

07-29-2006, 07:55 PM

I'm starting to wonder how you became a owner of this site since you are acting very rude.

Thad doesn't "own" this site. The only site he owns is his blog.

Thad was bright enough to at least state reasons for disliking UPA. You on the other hand, haven't managed to muster up a single reason for why you do like them. Have you even ever seen any UPA cartoons?

If a person doesn't like the attitudes and discussions here, they're more than welcome to start their own threads, and if they prefer not to do that, starting their own animation message board is always an option.

Also, if you have issues with a moderator, please discuss them with the moderator personally via private message. This thread (and any other thread) is not the place for it.

nickramer

07-29-2006, 08:00 PM

Okay, I get it. I just like the cartoons because of their unique style and experimental limited animation even if it attended countless knockoffs and yes I'm the same person who post on Thad's blog. Look I'm just a guy with autism. If you don't believe me, then don't. Sometimes I have trouble to come up with my own decissions.

rodney

07-29-2006, 08:02 PM

Nothing wrong with that. I like some of 'em too. A lot of us do. There's just no reason to get bent out of shape because somebody doesn't like them.

lonesome-lenny

07-29-2006, 08:41 PM

Sogturtle

07-29-2006, 08:56 PM

That's News to me! However, with that in mind It's both ironic and eerily fitting that Mr. Melendez would see fit to do commentary on a couple of Clampett cartoons... WITH JOHN KRICFALUSI of all people. Didn't John call UPA's animation "boring" in one of his interviews?

Leviathan~

I was really shocked and appalled to hear Melendez say that about ALL Warners animation...:eek::eek::eek: I've always remembered that he made a disparaging remark in Maltin's book about that working at UPA was "just like a breath of fresh air" after working at Warner Brothers... That one of course implied that (in his mind) things were stale at Warners.

In his commentary the one thing he loved about working at Warners was the practical joking!!! And that he was horrified on returning from his brief army stint to be immediately asked by John Burton to please QUIT playing practical jokes on the people underneath the unit... Jones' unit was the one below, soooooo indeed the unending practical jokes aimed at Jones and his crew (even with Clampett gone) were a troublesome sorepoint to be ended once and for all.

And yep, John K. does indeed hate UPA animation. So it is bizaare to pair Mr. K. and Melendez up. But then, maybe K. doesn't KNOW that Melendez was a UPA animator for several years!

ray simmons

07-29-2006, 11:25 PM

Rod Scribner is overrated.
UPA never made a cartoon worth watching twice.
Famous Studios made better cartoons than Fleischer.
Woody Woodpecker is the most underrated character in history.
Grant Simmons is my favorite animator.
Frank Tashlin is my favorite director.

Do-Do

07-29-2006, 11:45 PM

Famous Studios made better cartoons than Fleischer.

Come on, man. Come on.

Although I agree with you about Frank Tashlin. He's not my favorite, but he's one of them.

ray simmons

07-29-2006, 11:49 PM

Come on, man. Come on.

These are minority opinions aren't they?

When I was in college learning to animate in the 70s, the Fleischer cartoons, other than the Popeye series, never appealed to me. The level of draftsmanship by animators like Marty Taras, Steve Muffatti, and John Gentilella appealed to me far more than the insibid Color Classics or the surreal-for-surrealism's-sake Talkartoons.

Do-Do

07-29-2006, 11:52 PM

These are minority opinions aren't they?

When I was in college learning to animate in the 70s, the Fleischer cartoons, other than the Popeye series, never appealed to me. The level of draftsmanship by animators like Marty Taras, Steve Muffatti, and John Gentilella appealed to me far more than the insibid Color Classics or the surreal-for-surrealism's-sake Talkartoons.

I really don't mind. Different strokes for different folks or something like that....and I also do not like the Color Classics or Gabby. The slightly sub-standard technical quality of the Fleischer cartoons does not irritate me.

Cartman

07-30-2006, 12:24 AM

I enjoy the "Captain and the Kids" series. They can be funny for some of MGM's earlier works. I actually like the comics better.

Nick

07-30-2006, 12:30 PM

Here are some of mine:

I prefer Disney's 40s and 50s cartoons over the majority of the earlier shorts. The later shorts are much more humorous and character driven, but its probably because I like Donald and Goofy more than the Silly Symphonies or Mickey (although the very first Mickey cartoons are certainly not as bland), and they obviously weren't as developed fully in the 30s. I do however, think that all Pluto cartoons from the 40s & 50s, suck (I don't think thats a minority opinion).

I've never liked Snow White (the Disney feature film, not the Betty Boop short). I can see why people appreciate it so much, but I just find it dull and uninvolving. Plus Snow White's voice gets under my nerves.

When I was younger, I found Walter Lantz's output from the 50s and 60s pretty funny and seeing some of them more recently (including some Paul J. Smith cartoons) I still agree.

Gene Deitch's Tom and Jerrys are inferior to the original Hanna-Babera shorts, but on their own, they have an surrealistic appeal. I agree to the "bad dream" theory that someone said here.

Pietro

07-30-2006, 12:43 PM

A lot of people on the TTTP seem to vehemently dislike the Gene Deitch Tom and Jerry cartoons. I personally thought that they weren't too bad. I actually enjoy cartoons from Eastern Europe, so I suppose that's why I never disliked them as others do. My favorite is "Mouse Into Space" (because of its great Cold War-flavor - they even feature a Soviet cosmonaut dog). The cartoons of the 1920s and early 1930s are great too, especially the more off-beat ones such as Messmer's Felix or Lantz's rendition of Oswald.

-Pietro:daffy:

Do-Do

07-30-2006, 12:57 PM

A lot of people on the TTTP seem to vehemently dislike the Gene Deitch Tom and Jerry cartoons. I personally thought that they weren't too bad.

Well, I haven't seen one in many many years and while I don't really dislike them, they're not very fun to watch. I remember the first time I saw a Deitch T&J cartoon (Dicky Moe to be exact) and I felt like I had just sniffed airplane glue. They're just weird, weird cartoons.

Toonami

07-30-2006, 06:42 PM

-Space Jam was a really good movie

-Back in Action SUCKED, it was infinitley inferior to Space Jam (nostalgia, probably. If you're gonna make an entire movie about how Space Jam sucked don't make it hyperactive, ADD, dogshit)

-Roger Rbbbit is over-rated. The entire movie should have been classic characters (the few ones they could get)

-South Park was way better animation than Family Guy

-Joe Alaskey's Bugs and Daffy suck.

-Billy West does the best Bugs Bunny since Mel (and it's good, too, but it sucked in Space Jam)

-Some of Famous Studio's Supermans were just as good as Flesicher's.

-Speedy Gonzalez is a gweat character

-Edit: The only good Peanuts was the Christmas Special

-Games Animation Ren & Stimpy's weren't half bad

-Shrek and Shrek 2 SUCKED.

And yep, John K. does indeed hate UPA animation. So it is bizaare to pair Mr. K. and Melendez up. But then, maybe K. doesn't KNOW that Melendez was a UPA animator for several years!

Of course he does. He thinks they have "lousy animation" and that they're "Boring" but Amid Amidi said John is the only person he's the only person he's ever met who can break down with mathematical precision the layout compostions for Gerald Mc Boing Boing. So you can bet he's knowledgable of the studio.

frizfrelengfan

07-30-2006, 06:49 PM

My dislike of the Peanuts specials has nothing to do with Bill Melendez and everything to do with Charles Schulz.

Mr. Semaj

07-30-2006, 11:03 PM

My dislike of the Peanuts specials has nothing to do with Bill Melendez and everything to do with Charles Schulz.

Yikes. That's the first time I've heard that from anyone...EVER.

-Games Animation Ren & Stimpy's weren't half bad

I never fully understood the hatred of Games Ren & Stimpy. Of course John K. got kicked off his own project, but it's very unfair to blame the changes on Bob Camp, because he tried really hard to keep the spirit alive. Some of the other Spumco talents stayed behind, and together, they cranked out a lot of really great cartoons.

Also:

-I'm one of the few who seriously enjoyed the Mike Scully episodes of The Simpsons. The show has had cartoonish humor long before he showed up, but the reason why he's particularly hated is because character and plot development just didn't seem as important to him as raw comedy.

-I never liked Chip n' Dale. In some cartoons where they co-star with Donald Duck, they take it too far (Three for Breakfast).

mmtper

07-30-2006, 11:27 PM

My dislike of the Peanuts specials has nothing to do with Bill Melendez and everything to do with Charles Schulz.

Hmmm,....that really IS a minority opinion.

To each his own, though.:)

MGMUA

07-30-2006, 11:40 PM

1. Bob Clampett and Frank Tashlin are my Favorite Directors. 2. Rod Scribner and Ward Kimball are my Favorite Animators. 3. Sony Sucks. 4. Like Thad,UPA Sucks. 5. The Best Era of Disney is 1937-1955. 6. Hanna-Barbera Should Have Been Bought by Universal insted of Turner. 7. The Fleischer Cartoons(Except Popeye) are Overrated. 8. Frank Tashlin's Live-Action Movies Suck,and It's Shocking Since Frank is my Number 2 Favorite Director. 9. The Lantz Output is Underrated. 10. My Favorite Animation Studios are WB,Disney,MGM,Lantz,Paramount,and Hanna-Barbera. 11. Nintendo is Better Than Sony. 12. Wonderland and Peter Pan are my Favorite Disney Movies. and Last But Not Lest, 13. I Think Turner Buying The Pre-1986 MGM Stuff, The RKO Stuff, United Artists' TV Shows, and The AAP Stuff(Popeye and Pre-1948 WB) Was the Worst Thing to Happen to MGM/UA.

Javeman

07-31-2006, 12:19 AM

barnyarddawg

07-31-2006, 12:30 AM

Here's something I KNOW I'm in the minority:

I actually think "Hare Lift" is waaaaay better than "Falling Hare".

And here's why:

I'll give you guys that FH has the better poses and animation. From a technical viewpoint it's greatly done. The problem is that the extreme OOC-ness of Bugs and the very unlikeable villian REALLY bring the cartoon down. Seeing Bugs about to snap in pretty much every scene is kinda strange, it really seems that these gags were done for the pure purpose of trying something different, without worrying about them being executed the right way or for the plot to make sense.

HL has a Bugs more in control of the situation and calm even in the most tense situation. It's the Bugs most of us are used to so the cartoon is a lot more enjoyable. The fact that the villian is a known LT character and not a one-timer also helps the situation.

Oh, and "Robot Pilot" > Any gag in Falling Hare.

I haven't seen Hare Lift in a while, so I can't compare them, but Falling Hare has always bothered me for the reasons you say. The same with Tortoise Wins by a Hare. I'm really torn on that cartoon. The animation is spectacular, and my family and I say "athlete's phys-ee-que" to this day, but seeing Bugs act so stupid is so wrong. All he had to do was take off his cap and they would have known he was the rabbit! It's a role that would have been better filled by Daffy. I try and look at the cartoon like other people look at the Gene Deitch Tom and Jerrys, as something outside of the official canon.

Thad

07-31-2006, 12:38 AM

Javier, great point! With the exception of the animation, "Hare Lift" beats "Falling Hare" any day. It's a frustration comedy, something Bugs isn't exactly suited for.

For the record, I cannot stand these Bob Clampett color cartoons:

- "Falling Hare"
- "A Corny Concerto"
- "An Itch in Time"
- "Buckaroo Bugs"

The rest of them are spectacular though.

MGMUA

07-31-2006, 12:41 AM

Thad

07-31-2006, 12:46 AM

Why Do You Hate Corny Concerto and Buckaroo Bugs?

"Corny Concerto" has a lot of sloppy timing, and no continuous flow (it's broken into two parts, which I know is stabbing Fantasia but still..). The only gag really that benefits from the music is the dog's sobbing. Clampett said himself he wasn't happy with this one. I could name dozens of Clampett shorts I'd place before this one on the "50 Greatest Cartoons List".

In "Buckaroo Bugs", Bugs is a jerk and Ryder is too annoying to be funny. I love the Manny Gould scene of the horse turning inside out though.

MGMUA

07-31-2006, 12:53 AM

"Corny Concerto" has a lot of sloppy timing, and no continuous flow (it's broken into two parts, which I know is stabbing Fantasia but still..). The only gag really that benefits from the music is the dog's sobbing. Clampett said himself he wasn't happy with this one. I could name dozens of Clampett shorts I'd place before this one on the "50 Greatest Cartoons List".

In "Buckaroo Bugs", Bugs is a jerk and Ryder is too annoying to be funny. I love the Manny Gould scene of the horse turning inside out though. I Love Corny Concerto and Buckaroo Bugs! If You Hate Them So Much Why Did You Put Them on Youtube in the First Place? Besides, "Buckaroo Bugs" is Bugs at His Best! Red Hot Ryder is Realy Funny!

Thad

07-31-2006, 01:01 AM

I Love Corny Concerto and Buckaroo Bugs! If You Hate Them So Much Why Did You Put Them on Youtube in the First Place? Besides, "Buckaroo Bugs" is Bugs at His Best! Red Hot Ryder is Realy Funny!

Because the animation is fantastic and really worth studying. Doesn't mean it saves the bulk of the film though.

MGMUA

07-31-2006, 01:21 AM

Also Thad, Why do You Hate An Itch in Time?

Thad

07-31-2006, 01:26 AM

Also Thad, Why do You Hate An Itch in Time?

It goes over the top, leaping a mile over the line of good taste. Of course, don't let my thoughts ruin your enjoyment. Hate is a little strong of a word too.

Jeff

07-31-2006, 01:46 AM

It goes over the top, leaping a mile over the line of good taste. Of course, don't let my thoughts ruin your enjoyment. Hate is a little strong of a word too.

I'm also not a fan of Buckaroo Bugs or Tortoise Wins By A Hare.

I don't have a problem with An Itch In Time though. Out of curiosity, which gag did you find was in bad taste? The dog dragging his nether regions across the carpet, I guess?

Thad

07-31-2006, 01:51 AM

I don't have a problem with An Itch In Time though. Out of curiosity, which gag did you find was in bad taste? The dog dragging his nether regions across the carpet, I guess?

No, that was a highlight. I guess the idea of a flea actually feeding on the flesh of a dog, jackhammering it, and then planning to eat Elmer and the dog alive isn't that funny to me.

Jeff

07-31-2006, 02:07 AM

No, that was a highlight. I guess the idea of a flea actually feeding on the flesh of a dog, jackhammering it, and then planning to eat Elmer and the dog alive isn't that funny to me.

Awww, but he's just so cute!

(sings) There'll be food around the corner...

Javeman

07-31-2006, 02:35 AM

I don't like A Corny Concerto either. Not because of bad animation or anything like that, it's just that the cartoon is so boring. The fact that it's broken in two halves also screws up the timing. The second part specially feels like a cutesy Disney toon (Yes, this one is supposed to parody Disney, but they could have perfectly done that without it being so cheezy).

J. J. Hunsecker

07-31-2006, 03:16 AM

Not airing my own "minority views", I'm part-Indian so any views from me would HAVE to be "minority views":p...

BUT since both UPA and the Peanuts specials have come up it here for condemnation I will say this... They share one particular person... Namely Bill (aka J.C.) Melendez! UPA's animation staff really consisted of ex-Warnerites (Melendez among them), and some from Disney and MGM. As such, some very talented animators... The animation at UPA is, well, quiet, subdued, professional, but reflecting the director's wishes, i.e. blander than bland.

Sooooo honestly with Melendez being essentially retrained at UPA in blandness ("the UPA style") is it any wonder that HE was the man who got the Peanuts animation franchise?? Only thing necessary was that they look like the comic characters and be fairly static. And being able to say "I was a UPA animator for years" helped.

While listening to Melendez's commentary on "The Big Snooze" (on which he animated) I was struck by his damning it and all of the Warner's cartoons as having BAD animation! And his repeating that several times!

I'm sorry Mr. Melendez, but on that you're wildly, dead-wrong... The Warner's cartoons feature GREAT, COMEDIC animation and wonderful personality-character animation... While that of UPA (and the Melendez studio) is pretty much an argument for "HEY!!! That could be done JUST AS WELL in live action, if not better, why animate it?".
I'd have to listen to Melendez's commentary again, but I don't recall him saying the animation in the Warner cartoons were bad. I remember him saying that Clampett wanted the artists to go as broad with the animation as possible, though. Did Melendez think that was bad? (I might be confusing his commentary of "Falling Hare" with "The Big Snooze" though.)

I've read Melendez's comment on UPA being "a breath of fresh air" before. Did he mean that working at Warners in general was stultifying or only after Selzer was put in charge? Or could it have meant that animating for McKimson was oppressive since McKimson preferred for his animators to strictly follow his layouts (something Clampett didn't do)?

I saw Melendez at a screening for UPA cartoons recently, and he spoke about his time at that studio. His comments made it seem like he didn't share in the artistic snobbery there, but was merely a cartoonist doing his job.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIf Melendez did think the animation at Warners was poor, then I would have to say that I'm in agreement with *GASP* Sogturtle's comments! :eek:

J. J. Hunsecker

07-31-2006, 03:17 AM

J. J. Hunsecker

07-31-2006, 03:19 AM

I also think "Rocky and Bullwinkle" is overrated. It's funny, but I don't understand all the heaping critical praise it has recieved lo these many years.

Javeman

07-31-2006, 10:50 AM

I also think "Rocky and Bullwinkle" is overrated. It's funny, but I don't understand all the heaping critical praise it has recieved lo these many years.YES! Yes! Oh god, yesss!

That 70s Mom

07-31-2006, 11:33 AM

I also think "Rocky and Bullwinkle" is overrated. It's funny, but I don't understand all the heaping critical praise it has recieved lo these many years.

AMEN!! One or two clever puns do not compensate for fug-ugly animation. Bullwinkle looks like a walking turd.

frizfrelengfan

07-31-2006, 02:25 PM

Hmmm,....that really IS a minority opinion.

To each his own, though.:)
Well, the thread is about minority opinions.

To explain: I care neither for the Peanuts strip nor the TV specials based on the strip. I find neither funny. I may be the only one in the world that feels that way, but the humor in Peanuts completely escapes me. I do love the Vince Guaraldi piano music though.

[The late jazzman Guaraldi, accused of selling out when he composed the music for the Peanuts specials, retorted: "I'm not selling out, I'm buying in."]

rodney

07-31-2006, 05:38 PM

The beauty of Peanuts is in the simplicity of the graphic design and the groundbreaking pessimistic, dark humor (which really hadn't been explored before in comics). Plus Snoopy was such a surrealistic character that it's hard not to have fun with him.

Literally, in all my years, this is the first time I've heard of someone NOT liking Peanuts!

mmtper

07-31-2006, 06:13 PM

Literally, in all my years, this is the first time I've heard of someone NOT liking Peanuts!

Well, maybe he has a Peanuts allergy:D :o well, someone was gonna say it sooner or later

Jack G.

07-31-2006, 06:56 PM

OK how 'bout this one:

Clampett's interpretation (not his design) of Bug's Bunny
was the worst of all the directors.

Bug's is a cool and controlled character and does not suit
Clampett's over the top emotional style.

He also did more cartoons with Bug's losing than the other directors
and it just doesn't work. Bug's can have the table's turned on him
temprorarily or at the end of a cartoon (like Rebel Rabbit or Bugs Bunny and the Three Bears).

Bugs is absolutely unlikeable in Buckaroo Bugs and and The Old Grey Hare.

I don't buy that Clampett was the director that truly understood Bugs Bunny at all.

Clampett however did understand the daffy Daffy Duck best.

BloodyChamp

07-31-2006, 08:54 PM

I LOVE the Clampett cartoons in question. That applies to An Itch in Time even though I'd put it a tad below the others.

As for the Ren and Stimpy bits up there, they're not all bad. Some of the last ones were good but they made the worst cartoon of all time for goodness sake, Egg Yolkeo.

klangley

07-31-2006, 09:34 PM

In the midst of this UPA controversy, allow me to quietly state that I like Scott Bradley's musical scores more than Carl Stalling's. While I love Stalling's work, the bigger sound of the MGM orchestra, plus Bradley's fondness for modernistic music, does more for me overall. Bradley was a more adventurous composer and arranger by far, IMO.

You're not alone with that opinion. I love Carl Stallings score but I enjoy Bradley's so much more. I'll do you one better, I even enjoy Darrell Calker's work more than Stallings. I'm looking forward to the CD of Bradley's music that's supposed to come out later this year.

Another minority opinion, all of the Barney Bear cartoons by George Gordon, Michael Lah, Preston Blair, and especially Dick Lundy are classics. I put them right up there with some of the best work done at MGM. Busybody Bear is too funny. Have any of these shorts been released as extras on DVDs? :bbear:

Leviathan

07-31-2006, 09:36 PM

Literally, in all my years, this is the first time I've heard of someone NOT liking Peanuts!

Actually that brings me to another mintority opinion of mine: The First years of Peanuts (It's first strip thorugh 1952) were the absolute best. I feel the same way (but even more strongly) about Dennis the Menace.

And to close out with one last minority opinon: the WB Period of 1936-1939 is the most criminally overlooked WB period of them all

Vdubdavid

08-01-2006, 08:00 AM

I'm looking forward to the CD of Bradley's music that's supposed to come out later this year.

Really and for true!? Where did you find out about that?

rex racer

08-01-2006, 08:44 AM

And to close out with one last minority opinon: the WB Period of 1936-1939 is the most criminally overlooked WB period of them all

:eek: It's amaaaaaaazing! I totally agree!;)

OK, I'll throw another one out not seen yet...

The 1930's "Happy Harmonies" series from MGM deserves far more recognition and exploration than they seems to get. Aside from "Swing Wedding" the series gets short shrift here... Sure, the stories could be a bit bland at times, (so do many of the Merrie Melodies from this period, and many of Disney's) but the animation is first rate, and by the year 1936 was as good, if not better than that coming out of Disney's studio. Certainly it blew away what was coming out of Termite Terrace, (well 'cepting maybe "Miss Glory" ....:) )

klangley

08-01-2006, 09:25 AM

Really and for true!? Where did you find out about that?

Amid of Cartoon Brew informed me on my blog, it's being compiled by Daniel Goldmark the authour of Tunes For Toons. I don't know of a release date though, I hope it gets released soon.

That 70s Mom

08-01-2006, 10:16 AM

The 1930's "Happy Harmonies" series from MGM deserves far more recognition and exploration than it seems to get here.

Good point! I too wonder why no one ever talks about Happy Harmonies... is it because people don't like them, they don't care about them or just haven't seen them?

My favorite as a kid was the Chinese Nightingale. I'd have to get out the Kleenex box whenever that came on!

Sogturtle

08-01-2006, 10:35 AM

Good point! I too wonder why no one ever talks about Happy Harmonies... is it because people don't like them, they don't care about them or just haven't seen them?

My favorite as a kid was the Chinese Nightingale. I'd have to get out the Kleenex box whenever that came on!

Hmmmmm... I pretty much suspect how most everyone feels about the two MGM/Happy Harmony "Little Cheeser" cartoons... But just the same...:confused:

rex racer

08-01-2006, 11:06 AM

Hmmmmm... I pretty much suspect how most everyone feels about the two MGM/Happy Harmony "Little Cheeser" cartoons... But just the same...:confused:

I like 'em both, though I think Little "Buck" Cheeser to be much more imaginative!

Always thought it a bit odd that Harman and Ising didn't resurrect the character when they returned to the MGM Fold in 1939. Though it does seem most every other studio had cute mice cartoons.:p

barnyarddawg

08-01-2006, 11:42 AM

The Happy Harmonies were good enough that Walt Disney actually farmed the Silly Symphony "Merbabies" out to Harmon and Ising. :mickey:

J Lee

08-01-2006, 02:38 PM

The problem with the H&I shorts, as others have pointed out, is not so much in the individual cartoons but in the sameness of too many of their cartoons, as Hugh and Rudy sought to mimic Disney. That's why "Swing Wedding" stands out -- the cartoon unfolds like a Disney cartoon that somehow got cranked out by the early 1930s Fleischer story department (though the treatment of stand in "white" and "black" characters in the H&I cartoons followed the pattern MGM established for their features, and why Louie B. Mayer hated the Marx Brothers, but that's another story).

As for me, I think Chuck Jones' "Good Night, Elmer" is one of the most intracately animated WB cartoons ever made, and I love the anthropromorphic candle, but there are lots of others out there who totally detest the cartoon because of its story.