Introducing cartoons to the next generation [Archive]

Vdubdavid

04-06-2006, 09:17 PM

Have any of you guys had success introducing a young person to classic Hollywood animation? I have with my 8-year old sister. When the Popeye show was still on, she'd watch it with me and every once in a while would say "Popeye needs to get his spinach!" Lately, I've been pulling out my Disney treasures to show her when our mother is out. She loves Goofy, and actually enjoys the Mickey Mouse shorts of the 1930's! She got a big kick out of shorts like "Moving Day" and "Mickey's Circus". In her words watching Donald in the former, "Donald Duck has anger issues!" I have to say, for a little girl who's contemporary in every sense of the word, raised on Nickelodeon, it's heartwarming to know that these cartoons can still be enjoyed who only knows that they're old. Now, how do you think I should test her reaction to the B&W Disney shorts, or maybe Laurel & Hardy? She's actually familiar with the latter from watching "Mickey's Polo Team" even though she doesn't really know who they are.

CueBallCat79

04-06-2006, 09:19 PM

My children are going to watch nothing but Tom and Jerry...of course after that it'd probably be stupid to get them a cat.

klangley

04-06-2006, 09:50 PM

I have two little ones. 2 and 3 to be exact. They love to watch regular children's programming but the they are in awe when I put on classic shorts. My 3 year old saw Tom and Jerry on the shelf in a store so I picked it up, they can't get enough of it. They also are really into Woody Woodpecker, any Looney Tunes and I was surprised how much they liked Betty Boop. They die laughing at those wild Tex Avery takes from his MGM years. My Stepson is ten and he mostly likes the stuff on Nick and CN but the minute I have a DVD on with some classic cartoons he's glued to the TV. He starts asking all kinds of questions about the characters and what other shorts are funny. My nieces and nephews are the same age as him and I've noticed they show a similar interest in them. When they actually see them. Do you think these dopes running these stations just assume that these cartoons are outdated and that today's hip kids just won't like them? It seems to me if there on kids will watch them. Just like when I was growing up.:wolfie:

cpdavison

04-06-2006, 11:03 PM

Vdub:

The black & white Mickeys would probably be an easier sell than the Laurel & Hardys at her age, I'm guessing. The length and the pace of their two-reelers might be tough for her to sit through.

Try both and let us know her reactions!

BTW, my 2-year-old daughter looked me square in the face earlier this week and asked me, "We watch Popeye Sailorman cartoons?" I've waited my whole life for that moment, let me tell you!

Craig D.

Thad

04-06-2006, 11:12 PM

ALK

04-06-2006, 11:39 PM

Have any of you guys had success introducing a young person to classic Hollywood animation? My dad had success of it with me. That's how I was raised. The New York Mets and Classic WB cartoons:D . And he got me into other cartoons. We had the channel Boomerang for a while and my dad introduced me to Underdog, Dick Dastardly, Bullwinkle, etc. When I was about 9, I'd watch Tennessee Tuxedo every day when I'd come home from school.

Ray Pointer

04-07-2006, 03:02 AM

I think I can top these. When I was assembling the of OUT OF THE INKWELL films, an attorney friend with children seven and eight said his kids were riveted to these unusual cartoons which conveyed humor through the art of pantomime. Because they did not have to be told that something was funny by annoying yackity dialog, their attention was on what was happening with the beautiful animaiton. This was a positive experience because they asked for more of "the films with the funny cartoon man." I understand that Leslie Cabarga's young son also reacted the same way. It's not the age of the cartoons that matters. It's the content they find appealing, which is largely the graceful, fluid animation that is not being produced in today's cartoons. That is what catches their attention.

JDWeil

04-07-2006, 04:58 AM

rkish

04-07-2006, 08:05 AM

My 6 year old son has been exposed to just about every studios classic cartoons from Windsor McCay's Gertie and Max Fleischer's Ko-Ko the Clown through all of the Disney Treasures collections and Looney Tunes to the recent HB releases of Huck, Yogi, Jonny Quest, etc. He really enjoys all of them and has asked specifically for Woody Woodpecker, Tom and Jerry, Pink Panther, and very affectionately,for "Uncle Ray's Ko-Ko the Clown" DVD.

As Ray mentioned earlier, "It's not the age of the cartoons that matters. It's the content they find appealing, which is largely the graceful, fluid animation that is not being produced in today's cartoons. That is what catches their attention."

Amen to that!

Rich

Jeff

04-07-2006, 08:36 AM

I introduced Mickey Mouse In Black & White Volume 2 to my twin sons when they were somewhat over one year old (I was growing tired of Baby Einstein). They love those shorts, especially "When The Cat's Away" and "The Barn Dance".

About two months ago, I put together a DVD of 6 Looney Tunes. I call it "Looney Toddlers":

- Bedtime for Sniffles
- Snowtime for Comedy
- Naughty But Mice
- I Love To Singa
- Dog Tired
- Little Brother Rat

They LOOOOVE Sniffles and Owl Jolson right now. Every night I get it regularly: "Owl sing? Owl sing?" and "Sniffles Sleep? Sniffles?". When they watch, they act out what the characters are doing. My wife rolls her eyes...I just grin...

I'm planning my next DVD soon, maybe I'll burn it this weekend. Here's Looney Toddlers Volume 2:

- Sniffles and the Bookworm
- Prest-O Change-O
- I Haven't Got A Hat
- The Egg Collector
- Dog Gone Modern
- Toy Trouble
- Elmer's Candid Camera
- Porky's Poppa

janiepooh34

04-07-2006, 05:04 PM

My 5 year old loves Looney Tunes and Tom and Jerry and is mad at Boomerang for taking away his beloved Looney Tunes. He wants to write them a complaint letter!

Last winter a library in our area had a cartoon retrospective and I took my then 4 year old son and my 6 year old nephew to it, they both loved every minute of it. They started things off with Gertie the Dinosaur and moved up the years and ended with A Corny Concerto. Only once did my nephew ask "why are there no voices?" in some of the older ones. In fact, he enjoyed himself so much, that he asked me if I would take him to the next one they had. (Sadly, they have not had another one.)

In any case, I must agree with Ray (:eek:) that it truly is the content that catches their attention.

My 5 year old will have nothing to do with the newer stuff with the exception of The Simpsons.

frizfrelengfan

04-07-2006, 07:58 PM

My teenage daughter loves anime. I can't stand most of the stuff. But I've watched classic cartoons with her, and they make her laugh.

absolutpaul

04-07-2006, 10:03 PM

My 10 year old son has been watching these cartoons since he was born. He loves Tom and Jerry, Road Runner and has lately been going ape over The Pink Panther. He likes Woody Woodpecker and even likes watching my Fractured Flickers DVDs (!) but he detests Popeye and thinks it's the most stupid thing he's ever seen. He won't watch The Three Stooges either. He thinks they're dumb.

Geezil

04-08-2006, 10:47 PM

BTW, my 2-year-old daughter looked me square in the face earlier this week and asked me, "We watch Popeye Sailorman cartoons?" I've waited my whole life for that moment, let me tell you!

Craig D.

Awwwwwwww. :) Well, Craig, I can't possibly top that one, but maybe this will get honorable mention:

Our best neighborhood friends Out Here have two daughters, ages 12 and 7. They both love watching TV cartoons, and while the younger sister is still partial to Sponge Bob and that ilk, the older girl has told me more than once that she enjoyed "The Popeye Show" on CN whenever it popped up ... especially the black-and-white shorts! So something tells me she'd love either the VCI or the Thunderbean Popeye set, now that those are the only way to go. :D

And don't worry, we'll bring that 7-year-old around eventually too!

Easily Amewsed

04-09-2006, 10:27 PM

Hiya
Aww.. I really like hearing the stories of little kids discovery of classic toons. It's really great when your own kids get this privilige, but think how cool it is reach more.
This may sound stupid, but I think it has some relevancy all the same.
Janiepooh mentioned libraries in their post and I think if you really want to spread the love, making sure your local library has your fav classic as part of their collection is one of the best ways to do it. Here's a few whys.
Public libraries are free to town patrons, there's no rental fee and if it's a good way to find out if you wanna buy.
Not everyone has a cartoon collector/ enthusiast in their family. Lots of folks see toons as babysitters and will pick up a title just for that purpose...but if the little kid likes it and remembers..then that's a start.
Public libraries see enormous traffic..just wander into a kids section on any weekend and you'll see what I mean. The toon DVDs do not sit idle. It's very rare to find more than 1 copy of any title on the shelf even though there may be 5 copies in circulation.
Bottom line is, if your library takes suggestions for materials from it's patrons..go for it . A couple of years ago our library had never heard of Cats Don't Dance ( not a classic I know). It took a few minutes to hunt up the isbns and fill out their online form, and about 3 months later they had 5 copies. Now hundreds of kids will get to see it and all it cost me was a little time and effort. That's a good feeling. :)
EA ( who notices they don't have Tom and Jerry at our library..yet)

Jeff

04-10-2006, 09:34 AM

Bottom line is, if your library takes suggestions for materials from it's patrons..go for it . A couple of years ago our library had never heard of Cats Don't Dance ( not a classic I know). It took a few minutes to hunt up the isbns and fill out their online form, and about 3 months later they had 5 copies. Now hundreds of kids will get to see it and all it cost me was a little time and effort. That's a good feeling. :)
EA ( who notices they don't have Tom and Jerry at our library..yet)

This is a great idea. I know my library has many classic cartoon DVDs. We've been spoiled: LTGC volumes 1 and 2, Mickey Mouse in B&W/Color, Silly Symphonies Vol.1, Chronological Donald/Pluto, Complete Goofy, On The Front Lines, Disney Rarities.

But one thing I did notice is that they don't have any Tom and Jerry at our library either. And that was a fairly big release.

Maybe I'll request that and The Muppet Show DVD next time I'm there...

Vdubdavid

04-11-2006, 06:29 AM

Well, I can't top some of the stories here, but I have a question. My sister likes Tom & Jerry (I forgot to mention that), but I generally stay away from the Mammy Two-Shoes cartoons, for the duel reasons that some of them are more stereotyped than others, and I don't like having to listen to the redubbed versions on our DVD. However, she has seen "Sleepy Time Tom", "The Little Orphan" in their original forms, and she didn't say anything. In fact, she thought Mammy looked like a hippo and I had to tell her she was a woman! So, what's your opinion of exposing her to the original undubbed shorts like "The Midnight Snack" or "Part Time Pal"? I'm honestly not sure if she'll recognize anything negative. She's seen the uncut "Pluto's Judgement Day" and was more confused by some of the dialogue than by the appearance of the "Uncle Tom" cats.

cpdavison

04-11-2006, 07:53 AM

Vdubdavid:

I don't know where folks got the idea that we had to "top" one another. If it was my post from earlier in the thread, I apologize. I probably should've kept my "proud Pappa" instincts in check. Moving forward...

Of course there are plenty of other, less problematic cartoons you can share with your sister. But if you really want to go there...

How does Mom and Dad feel about the subject? Does sis have any freinds of color or any other frame of reference? If it was me in your spot, I'd probably just explain that Hollywood had this weird idea that everyone could afford to hire housekeepers and invariably, in the these sort of movies, they tended to be like the one shown in the Tom and Jerry cartoons. You could then have a discussion about other weird, Hollywood ideas that are out-of-step with real life.

Of course, I'm just a stranger on the internet and you're dealing with actual family members, so take it for what it's worth.

Let us know how it plays out.

Craig D.

Geezil

04-11-2006, 10:40 AM

Vdubdavid:

I don't know where folks got the idea that we had to "top" one another. If it was my post from earlier in the thread, I apologize. I probably should've kept my "proud Pappa" instincts in check.

Craig D.

Um ... that was me. Guilty as charged. (What I should have said back there was more on the order of, "Craig, you have without a doubt come up with the most heartwarming and inspiring story out of any of these." And, C.D., if your ears aren't burning after that one, they never will! ;) )

Tom Stathes

04-13-2006, 03:02 AM

When my family got TV back in the '50's the major studios were still holding on to their classic cartoon libraries and the local station were showing the old silent cartoons from the teens, '20. and early sound era so I got to see all of those old shorts, and an animation history lesson besides. It's all changed now.
JD, great post- if I may ask, which early silent cartoons do you recall seeing?
I'm trying to get a better understanding of what else may have been circulating on early TV besides the Aesop's Fables, Alice Comedies, Out of the Inkwell, Bray, and other popular packages.
Yours,
Tom

P.S. On RARE occasion one may find a Chaplin cartoon or several Mutt & Jeffs in the random "miscellany" packages which floated around, though I'm curious if anyone has specific recollections of obscure characters & titles.

JDWeil

04-13-2006, 04:55 AM

Ray Pointer

04-14-2006, 12:41 PM

JD, great post- if I may ask, which early silent cartoons do you recall seeing?
I'm trying to get a better understanding of what else may have been circulating on early TV besides the Aesop's Fables, Alice Comedies, Out of the Inkwell, Bray, and other popular packages.
Yours,
Tom

P.S. On RARE occasion one may find a Chaplin cartoon or several Mutt & Jeffs in the random "miscellany" packages which floated around, though I'm curious if anyone has specific recollections of obscure characters & titles.

I have vague memories of seeing the silent classics on television. It should come as no surprise that OUT OF THE INKWELL made the biggest impression on me as a pre-schooler. Sound cartoons from the 1930s started to dominate in the television syndication circles by the mid to late 1950s. And as new cartoons were being made, they eventually filled airwaves, replacing the older cartooons completely.

It was in the 1970s that many of us with impressions of the older cartoons started search for them. Some were buried in obscure film rental collections, and others were floating around in among collectors. For those interested,
read my article, FINDING KO-KO http://www.inkwellimagesink.com/pages/articles/findingKoKo.shtml
which is on the Internet and also on my website: http://www.inkwellimagesink.com (http://www.inkwellimagesink.com).

Again, with this being the centennial of American Animation, my upcoming release, BEFORE WALT is sure to be of great interest to those serious about our animation heritage.

Tom Stathes

04-14-2006, 07:16 PM

MOst of the silents that I saw were from the Fables Studios but there was a healthy sampling fom Bray (Out Of the Inkwell, Bobby Bumps, Farmer Al Falfa, Dreamy Dud, Walter Lantz produced shorts e.g. Dinky Doodle, Pete the Pup and a few others) Disney's Alice comedies, Pat Sullivan's Felix the Cat, More of Fleischer's Koko the Clown (post Bray) and a few Mutt & Jeff's. As for the sound shorts....well. that's another story.
Thanks for the info. So far you're another one of the few folks I know of who actually remembers the Bray package. It is absolutely amazing that although these prints were being offered well into the 70s; most of them remain lost and unseen by the collectors!
-Tom

Ray Pointer

04-15-2006, 01:50 PM

Thanks for the info. So far you're another one of the few folks I know of who actually remembers the Bray package. It is absolutely amazing that although these prints were being offered well into the 70s; most of them remain lost and unseen by the collectors!
-Tom

I hadthe catalog of prints being offered for sale by The Bray Studios in the 1970s. But many of the titles were simply unavable because the negatives were already unusable in many cases.:(

Tom Stathes

04-15-2006, 05:24 PM

I hadthe catalog of prints being offered for sale by The Bray Studios in the 1970s. But many of the titles were simply unavable because the negatives were already unusable in many cases.:(
Ray,
Was this a one-sheet ad with around 90 titles listed or a booklet type of catalog? If the latter ever existed, I've never seen an example.
What I find puzzling is why the negatives would be unuseable if 16mm reductions were made only a couple decades earlier. This is something I just don't understand- did the 16mm negatives crap out on them?
Tom

Ray Pointer

04-16-2006, 12:45 PM

Ray,
Was this a one-sheet ad with around 90 titles listed or a booklet type of catalog? If the latter ever existed, I've never seen an example.
What I find puzzling is why the negatives would be unuseable if 16mm reductions were made only a couple decades earlier. This is something I just don't understand- did the 16mm negatives crap out on them?
Tom

Around 1972 or '73, I tried to order THE CLOWN'S PUP and certain other titles from Bray. After waiting two months, I called in spoke with Ron Stevens. He was the one who told me that they were having trouble with working with the negatives on these films and asked me if I would accept a substitute. The negs were already 20 years old or more at the time, and there did not seem to be any 35mm elements for them to work from. So any 35mm prints that do survive of the Bray cartoons are beat up misused prints at The Library of Congress, or housed in private collections from what I am finding. I've only been seeking these out for 34 years now.:(

Tom Stathes

04-16-2006, 04:25 PM

Around 1972 or '73, I tried to order THE CLOWN'S PUP and certain other titles from Bray. After waiting two months, I called in spoke with Ron Stevens. He was the one who told me that they were having trouble with working with the negatives on these films and asked me if I would accept a substitute. The negs were already 20 years old or more at the time, and there did not seem to be any 35mm elements for them to work from. So any 35mm prints that do survive of the Bray cartoons are beat up misused prints at The Library of Congress, or housed in private collections from what I am finding. I've only been seeking these out for 34 years now.:(
Interesting. You've told me the scenario before, but what I'm now realizing is that they must not have maintained their 16mm negatives well (Before I thought they were directly reducing from 35mm whenever they sold new prints which is why they might have problems). Certainly odd for a company which dealt with film stock 60 years prior.
-Tom

Ray Pointer

04-17-2006, 01:55 AM

The process of making 16mm prints is to make contact prints from negatives of the same gage. In order to make 16mm prints from 35mm sources, a 16mm reduction negative has to be made from a 35mm positive print. This is done by an optical reduction using the Optical Printer onto negative stock. This makes the 16mm print that results three or four generations removed from the original camera negative or dupe negative respectively. 16mm prints are not made by reducing from a 35mm positive because it is more expensive, and if the positive is the only surviving archival source, its handling must be limited for preservation.

Keep in mind that you are dealing with a process that is obsolete. And aside from prints circulating among private collections, there is not the abudance of new 16mm prints circulating as was the case up until the last 15 to 20 years. While 16mm still exists as a medium, the lab work is limited mostly to film processing since everything goes directly to digital video for editing instead of physical film printing for television. Even theatrical features are edited digitally, but with final output onto a 35mm film negative.

The Optical Printing process which was used for making reduction negatives, as well as process shots (mattes) is practically nonexistent now since everything is digital technology. And while there are a few special labs doing this work for archival purposes, it is costly since it is not being used any longer and there are few Optical Bench Operators left. In the 1970s, Optical Printing techniques were being done in the "Aerial Image" process on animation stands. So aside from the sentiment and love of the physical aspect of film, it and its techinology is disappearing. And since most of the 16mm labs have gone out of business in the last 15 years, it's now left to specialty labs and "hobbiest" lab techs operating home film labs to produce that new film prints.

Studio Toledo

04-17-2006, 03:56 AM

The process of making 16mm prints is to make contact prints from negatives of the same gage. In order to make 16mm prints from 35mm sources, a 16mm reduction negative has to be made from a 35mm positive print. This is done by an optical reduction using the Optical Printer onto negative stock. This makes the 16mm print that results three or four generations removed from the original camera negative or dupe negative respectively. 16mm prints are not made by reducing from a 35mm positive because it is more expensive, and if the positive is the only surviving archival source, its handling must be limited for preservation.

Keep in mind that you are dealing with a process that is obsolete. And aside from prints circulating among private collections, there is not the abudance of new 16mm prints circulating as was the case up until the last 15 to 20 years. While 16mm still exists as a medium, the lab work is limited to process mostly since everything goes directly to digital video for editing instead of physical film printing for television.

The Optical Printing process which was used for making reduction negatives, as well as process shots is practically nonexistent now since everything is digital technology. And while there are a few special labs doing this work for archival purposes, it is costly since it is not being used any longer and there are few Optical Bench Operators left. So aside from the sentiment and love of the physical aspect of film, it and its techinology is disappearing, and most of the 16mm labs have gone out of business in the last 15 years. It's now left to specialty labs and "hobbiest" lab techs operating home film labs that new film prints manage to be produced now.
Amazing any of it gets done at all. Still makes me sad thinking of how far we've come here.