What Happened To The Original Fleischer Negatives?

[Bugsmer]

Why is the UCLA restoring film prints of the Fleischer shorts? Have the original negatives been lost, or absorbed into Paramount? Why is one Buzzy Boop cartoon considered lost? Doesn't Paramount have a copy? Wouldn't Paramount, or at the very least, Richard Fleischer, have copies of the Out of the Inkwell and Inklings shorts? How many Inklings were made? And why was every Betty Boop cartoon shown on TV but the two Buzzy Boop shorts? Is something the matter with them?

Forgive me. I'm just full of questions.

Bugsmer

[JERRY BECK]

Why is the UCLA restoring film prints of the Fleischer shorts? Have the original negatives been lost, or absorbed into Paramount?

The pre-1950 Paramount shorts were sold to UM&M TV Corp. in the mid 1950s. The original negaitives they got from Paramount are today held at UCLA. The main reason UCLA Archives has them is because they are nitrate - and UCLA has excellent storage facilities for such material. Paramount today controls the ownership of these master materials.

Why is one Buzzy Boop cartoon considered lost? Doesn't Paramount have a copy? Wouldn't Paramount, or at the very least, Richard Fleischer, have copies of the Out of the Inkwell and Inklings shorts? And why was every Betty Boop cartoon shown on TV but the two Buzzy Boop shorts?

It's "considered lost" because it simply is. Do you have a copy? There are four BETTY BOOP titles which for some unknown reason not part of the sale from Paramount to U.M.&M. These titles were never shown on television on the 1950s & 60s. Two of them surfaced in recent years on CARTOON FACTORY in Europe. All we can do is speculate as to why those four weren't included in the sale. A typographical error? The negs were damaged then? Who knows?

[Bugsmer]

Thanks, Jerry. It's amazing how easily the original negatives can be separated from their country of origin. Were the Fleischer studio still around, we might be watching these four obscure cartoons right now. Thanks again, Jerry. If I find out what happened, I'll let you know.

[Ray Pointer]

I saw the NTA negatives coming into UCLA in 1980. While going through the index card catalog on Fleischer negatives, I came across some interesting discoveries on POOR CINDERELLA. First I found a reference to a 16mm black and white postive, then a 16mm black and white negative. Then I found reference to a 35mm "red" negative, and then a 35mm "blue" negative, followed by a new 3mm Eastman color print. This was a revelation since there had been no color prints of this, the first of the COLOR CLASSICS since all circulating 16mm prints were black and white made from the blue negative. This meant that the images from the red negative were missing, making BETTY BOOP a platinum blonde in black and white. The Parmount open and tag was black and white, spliced onto the color footage. The color test I saw was far more subtle than what has been seen in the last 25 years. Betty's hair was more henna or auburn, not the pumpkin orange you see today. There were also traces of purple in the film since this is obtained by the combination of red and blue. But we do not see this today either.

The incentive for depositing negatives with UCLA were based largely on economics. The state of California charges a Nitrate Storage Tax. To bypass these taxes of older films that the studios were not interested in, they donated these negatives to UCLA Film and Television Archives while retaining the rigths to them. In this way, the state was now responsible for the storage and maintance of these older film negatives.

It should be understood that there are variations when speaking of film negatives. The impression is that an "original negative" is the same one that went through the camera during initial photography. This is largely not the case since 1) original camera negatives contain splices to assemble scenes as they are completed 2) originial camera negatives are copied to dupe negative stock for distribution prints. Dupe negatives are always made as back ups to protect the original camera negative as a protection in case of loss, fire, or decomposition.

Many of these negatives had to be transferred to Safety Film when the industry abandonded the Nitrate standard in 1950. Again, the Nitrates were retained as an original source as long as they did not show signs of decomposition. When the cartoons were sold into television syndication, 16mm reduction negatives were made, from which distribution prints were circulated. In the case of the Fleischer cartoons, alterations on the titles were done on a 35mm positive source from which the reduction prints were made. This explains why many surviving 35mm black and white Fleischer cartoons have the U.M. & M. shield/block letter "THE END" replacing the original Paramount openings and closings. This footage was removed from the print source and discarded. In the case of NTA color prints, those titles appear to have been butt-spliced onto the 16mm negatives since the physical splices for the NTA logos can be seen, where they are not on the U.M. & M. prints. Similar care with the POPEYE black and whites was taken as well, while the three color specials also suffer from abrupt shifts in the titles. Some 35mm Techincolor prints I've seen at UCLA archives are in the original state, and apprear to be the sources for the 16mm reductions, as I recognized certain flaws in the print that exist in the 16mm prints

Regarding certain lost cartoons such as BUZZY BOOP, there are four that are missing: BUZZY BOOP, BUZZY BOOP AT THE CONCERT, PUDGY AND THE LOST KITTEN, and HONEST LOVE AND TRUE. The rights to these four plus THE RAVEN were supposed to have been retained by Fleischer Studios. Fleischer Studios was inactive as a corporation for nearly 30 years, and was only reactivated near the time of Max Fleischer's death for the merchandising of BETTY BOOP. And while Richard Fleischer has inherited the corporation, it has no films since the original company did nothing to maintain the negatives to the missing titles. Since Fleischer Studios retained the rights to the four cartoons, because of their interest and continued battles over rights to the films and the cartoon character, BETTY BOOP, these titles were not available for the television package. Adding to the complication was the fact that Max Fleischer was involved with a complicated lawsuit over the sale of these cartoons to television. This also adds to the understanding of why these four were not available. What is most curious is how THE RAVEN did enter into the package. My memory of seeing THE RAVEN was in the mid 1960s, not during the 1950s when the cartoon packages were first sold for broadcast. This is the same with the Color Classics, except that I do remember seeing POOR CINDERELLA when I was a pre-schooler in 1956.

After all of trading and selling from Parmount to U.M. & M., then NTA, then NTA becoming Republic, Republic becoming a Spelling Company, and Spelling being acquired by Viacom, the cartoons originally sold for television syndication 50 years ago have been re-acquired. As as "the chickens come home to roost," let's home they realize the golden egg potential of what they are already sitting on.:betty: :sailor:

[Argus]

On Jerry Beck's site, there are the original openings to a 1930's Screen Song. How did those get saved?

[Studio Toledo]

I saw the NTA negatives coming into UCLA in 1980.
That's so cool!

WHile going through the index card catalog on Fleischer negatives, I came across some interesting discoveries on POOR CINDERELLA. First I found a reference to a 16mm black and white postive, then a 16mm black and white negative. Then I found reference to a 35mm "red" negative, and then a 35mm "blue" negative, followed by a new 3mm Eastman color print.
That must've been worth the time to check that out! At least NTA didn't ruin that.

This was a revelation since there had been no color prints of this, the first of the COLOR CLASSICS since all circulating 16mm prints were black and white made from the blue negative. This meant that the images from the red negative were missing, making BETTY BOOP a platinum blonde in black and white.
Being reminded of my first view of "Poor Cinderella" that had to be from those B&W prints too.

The Parmount open and tag was black and white, spliced onto the color footage. The color test I saw was far more subtle than what has been seen in the last 25 years. Betty's hair was more henna or auburn, not the pumpkin orange you see today. There were also traces of purple in the film since this is obtained by the combination of red and blue. But we do not see this today either.
Interesting if there was far more color than I've seen in recent editions.

The incentive for depositing negatives with UCLA were based largely on economics. The state of California charges a Nitrate Storage Tax. To bypass these taxes of older films that the studios were not interested in, they donated these negatives to UCLA Film and Television Archives while retaining the rigths to them. In this way, the state was now responsible for the storage and maintance of these older film negatives.
Funny how such an incredible archive came to be because of a simple loophole.

It should be understood that there are variations when speaking of film negatives. The impression is that an "original negative" is the same one that went through the camera during initial photography. This is largely not the case since 1) original camera negatives contain splices to assemble scenes as they are completed 2) originial camera negatives are copied to dupe negative stock for distribution prints. Dupe negatives are always made as back ups to protect the original camera negative as a protection in csse of loss, fire, or decomposition.
We never do take that into account.

Many of these negatives had to be transferred to Safety Film when the industry abandonded the Nitrate standard in 1950. When the cartoons were sold into television syndication, 16mm reduction negatives were made, form which distribution prints were circulated. In the case of the Fleischer cartoons, alterations on the titles were done on a 35mm positive source from which the reduction prints were made. This explains why many surviving 35mm black and white Fleischer cartoons have the U.M. & M. shield replacing the original Paramount openings and closings. This footage was removed from the print source and discarded. In the case of NTA color prints, those titles appear to have been butt-spliced onto the 16mm negatives since the physical splices for the NTA logos can be seen, where they are not on the U.M. & M. prints. Similar care with the POPEYE black and whites was taken as well, while the three color specials also suffer from abrupt shifts in the titles.

Regarding certain lost cartoons such as BUZZY BOOP, there are four that are missing: BUZZY BOOP, BUZZY BOOP AT THE CONCERT, PUDGY AND THE LOST KITTEN, and HONEST LOVE AND TRUE. The rights to these four plus THE RAVEN were supposed to have been retained by Fleischer Studios. Fleischer Studios was inactive as a corporation for nearly 30 years, and was only reactivated near the time of Max Fleischer's death for the merchandising of BETTY BOOP. And while Richard Fleischer has inherited the corporation, it has no films since the original company did nothing to maintain the negatives to the missing titles. Since Fleischer Studios retained the rights to the four cartoons, because of their interest and continued battles over rights to the films and the cartoon character, BETTY BOOP, these titles were not available for the television package. Adding to the complication was the fact taht Max Fleischer was involved with a complicated lawsuit over the sale of these cartoons to telelvision. This also adds to the understanding of why these four were not available. What is most curious is how THE RAVEN did enter into the package. My memory of seeing THE RAVEN was in the mid 1960s, not during the 1950s when the cartoon packages were first sold for broadcast. This is the same with the Color Classics, except that I do remember seeing POOR CINDERELLA when I was a pre-schooler in 1956.

After all of trading and selling from Parmount to U.M. & M., then NTA, then NTA becoming Republic, Republic becoming a Spelling Company, and Spelling being acquired by Viacom, the cartoons originally sold for television syndication 50 years ago have been re-acquired. As as "the chickens come home to roost," let's home they realize the golden egg potential of what they are already sitting on.:betty: :sailor:
The arleady got back most of their 1927-50 material this way, I only wish Paramount/Viacom had a brain cell to see potential for releaseing these the right way.

[Argus]

TV prints of Poor Cinderella have the "A National Telefilm Associates Release" logo as well as the U.M.&M. copyright byline inserted in the original opening title, which some TV prints of B&W Fleischer cartoons also featured.

Assuming the opening to the first Popeye cartoon exists (it was a Betty Boop cartoon, but part of the AAP package), locating the same Paramount logo and digitally matching it to the Betty Boop cartoons with the "Mountain/Columns" opening might be feasible.

If a print exists with the Paramount copyright byline intact, restoration is even easier. Snow White was made, IIRC, before the switch to the "Mountain/Columns" opening.

http://www.animationarchive.org/2005/11/filmography-betty-boop-in-snow-white.html

Wonder why they left the U.M.&M. end title?

Other Fleischer cartoons can have their openings recreated. Just take a look at a restoration of "Ko-Ko the Kid".

[J Lee]

TV prints of Poor Cinderella have the "A National Telefilm Associates Release" logo as well as the U.M.&M. copyright byline inserted in the original opening title, which some TV prints of B&W Fleischer cartoons also featured.

Assuming the opening to the first Popeye cartoon exists (it was a Betty Boop cartoon, but part of the AAP package), locating the same Paramount logo and digitally matching it to the Betty Boop cartoons with the "Mountain/Columns" opening might be feasible.

If a print exists with the Paramount copyright byline intact, restoration is even easier. Snow White was made, IIRC, before the switch to the "Mountain/Columns" opening.

http://www.animationarchive.org/2005/11/filmography-betty-boop-in-snow-white.html

Wonder why they left the U.M.&M. end title?

Other Fleischer cartoons can have their openings recreated. Just take a look at a restoration of "Ko-Ko the Kid".

The Betty Boop opening with the Paramount mountain debuted with the first official Betty Boop cartoon, "Stopping the Show". IIRC, the opening of "Popeye the Sailor" was recreated for Episode 10 of "The Popeye Show", but the cartoon was pulled from the show at the last minute due to one un-PC characture that the folks at Cartoon Network were worried about (even though it always ran in the redrawn version). If that's true, maybe Mike Lazzo will run the thing one day on Adult Swim instead of the weekly "Boo Boo Run Wild" airing. ;)

As for the mountain vs. plain black background opening, some of the Boop cartoons in 1933 would have the Paramount mountain, and others didn't ("Snow White" doesn't, but the final Boop/Cab Calloway short "The Old Man of the Mountain" does), though by mid-1934, the mountain background on the title cards was gone for good, and that style opening disappeared for good with 1935's "A Language All My Own"

[Bugsmer]

Fascinating lecture, Ray. I hadn't known that nitrate negatives were transferred to acetate. I suppose some of the really old cartoons weren't. I also hadn't known that so many duplicate negatives were made of the originals. I suppose the original original negatives, being of nitrate stock, were destoryed after acetate copies were made? Do you get some of your prints from UCLA? It might have the best prints of many cartoons.

[Ray Pointer]

There are some 16mm prints of POPEYE THE SAILOR wih the complete Mountain procenium motif intact. La Cinemateque Quebecois has a 35mm print I believe. The un-PC matter in the cartoon concerns a "minstral" characature face in the ball toss sequence. It's odd that CN kept the entire cartoon off the air for this issue since it is skillfully edited out of the color remake.

As for what is available from UCLA, it is not a simple matter since you are dealing with a state controlled organization. They have a commercial film sales division that handles the licensing of the footage in their possession. This is generally the source for film clips used in major documentaries with generous budgets that air on PBS and major networks. It is a complicated process working with them. I have dealt mostly with The Library of Congress, which is under the Federal Govenment. I have also dealt with private collections, which I prefer since it is direct and less time consuming. And while there is an online catalog of LOC animation titles, none are transferred to digital medium, so you pay for the video transfers from the actual film prints. THe making of film prints is a more expensive process and not worth the trouble especially since there are getting to be fewer competant labs now. UCLA seems to have both film and digital versions on most of their holdings.

[Studio Toledo]

There are some 16mm prints of POPEYE THE SAILOR wih the complete Mountain procenium motif intact. La Cinemateque Quebecois has a 35mm print I believe. The un-PC matter in the cartoon concerns a "minstral" characature face in the ball toss sequence. It's odd that CN kept the entire cartoon off the air for this issue since it is skillfully edited out of the color remake.

As for what is available from UCLA, it is not a simple matter since you are dealing with a state controlled organization. They have a commercial film sales division that handles the licensing of the footage in their possession. This is generally the source for film clips used in major documentaries with generous budgets that air on PBS and major networks. It is a complicated process working with them. I have dealt mostly with The Library of Congress, which is under the Federal Govenment. I have also dealt with private collections, which I prefer since it is direct and less time consuming. And while there is an online catalog of LOC animation titles, none are transferred to digital medium, so you pay for the video transfers from the actual film prints. THe making of film prints is a more expensive process and not worth the trouble especially since there are getting to be fewer competant labs now. UCLA seems to have both film and digital versions on most of their holdings.
Thanks for addressing the issue further Ray. Still rather a tease thinking of the kind of material these places do have in storage.