GeorgeC
01-12-2005, 08:48 AM
One can only hope that some of the divisions within the Fleischer family tree have been healed.
I've read in more than one place that there was seriously bad blood between the Max and Dave sides of that family for DECADES and people literally didn't talk to each other for years. I think Max and Dave died within a few years of each other having basically not talked to one another regularly in something like 20 years! Unfortunately, I've also read that hard feelings may have continued between the children and grandchildren of those 2 sides of the family.
I hope the book is balanced and acknowledges the other Fleischer family members' contributions to the Fleischer Studios. Sure, Richard Fleischer is going to give kudos to his father Max, but Fleischer Studios was more than just Max. Dave Fleischer was basically the producer on the majority of the cartoons mades from the late 1920s through the early 1940s (he really didn't direct them in the sense most people think), another brother actually BUILT the devices Max dreamed up, and yet another brother or two performed other important duties at the Studios.
My only other concern is that Richard Fleischer had somebody familiar with animation go over some things in this book. I can remember reading a text of a talk he gave and more than a few facts in the speech were flat out wrong or misconceptions about the art form and its history. I don't believe any errors were deliberate, but Richard Fleischer was first and foremost a live-action director who had little professional contact with animation and I'm concerned that his lack of contact in that field will lead to more errors being accepted as gospel by animation fans and historians. There are already plenty of books out there that are riddled with errors.
cpdavison
01-12-2005, 10:34 AM
One can only hope that some of the divisions within the Fleischer family tree have been healed.
I've read in more than one place that there was seriously bad blood between the Max and Dave sides of that family for DECADES and people literally didn't talk to each other for years. I think Max and Dave died within a few years of each other having basically not talked to one another regularly in something like 20 years! Unfortunately, I've also read that hard feelings may have continued between the children and grandchildren of those 2 sides of the family. (snip)Indeed! There are even divisions outside of the Fleischer family who have been duking it out for decades in the "official Fleischer know-it-all" sweepstakes.
Leslie Carbaga was the first person to write a book about the Fleischer Studio and his later revised edition has been greatly appreciated.
G. Michael Dobbs was working on his version of the Fleischer biography, but one wonders if it ever came to fruition. He seems to have dropped off the face of the earth since his ANIMATION PLANET magazine folded some seven or so years ago.
Of course, the internet is rife with self-styled "animation historian experts" who are only too glad to chip in their two cents worth.
Thanks for the heads-up on this long-awaited book. I'll be watching for its release!
Ray Pointer
01-12-2005, 04:19 PM
I have had a very long association with this subject, as far back as 1967, which most probably places me well ahead of the line of many of the present day Fleischer experts. During the course of my research, I discovered that Max's daughter, Ruth Kneitel had written an article on her father, Max Fleischer for CARTOONIST'S PROFILES. In 1972, I had read where Richard Fleischer had donated his father's original patent papers to the American Film Institute. I wrote to him, and although he was busy on THE NEW CENTURIANS, he was gracious enough to answer my questions.
A year later, I received a letter from Richard who was then at Universal, and he referred me to his sister, Ruth. She was also gracious and generous, giving me pictures, loaning me other things, requesting that I return them, which I did. Part of the trouble was that so many people would ask for things, and being trusting people, the Fleischers would give them out and never get them back. This may also account for why they had very little from the studio.
I was interested in producing a documentary on Max Fleischer, and Ruth gave me a wonderful compliment in that I knew more than she could remember. She also asked me why I was doing this, and my answer was because all of the animation histories had been focused on Disney, and that I also enjoyed jigsaw puzzles. She laughted, admitting that my analogy was correct since there were so many aspects of her father's life that were yet unknown to her. She worked in the studio as the Ink and Paint Supervisor for a period of time. It was during this period that she met Seymour Kneitel, who was working in the Story Deparment, not as an animator then. They were married in 1931.
It was also at this time in 1973 that Leslie Cabarga was starting his book supported by Woody Gelman and The Nostalgia Press. Ruth put me in touch with Leslie, who had written an article for ROLLING STONE MAGAZINE based on Ruth's article. It seemed that the timing of our being united through Ruth was perfect since I had exhausted all of the published accounts on the subject, and was seeking other sources to balance out the facts. As it turned out, Leslie had interviews with the Fleischer brothers, and I had other research material that he was interested in. So we agreed to trade freely among each other in order to make the book as good as it could have been.
I was also the subject matter expert who helped Leslie understand certain production procedures and the applications of the Rotoscope, which he concluded was a "cheating way to animate," but is a false impression based on a lack of working professional knowledge.
I had been aware of the existence of the brothers other than Dave, and learned what their part in the organization was through Ruth Kneitel. And it is because of this, and several complicated family and business issues associated with ethical principles, that the family became separted because of the devestating loss of the studio. We really cannot fully realize the total affects this had on these people's lives, but it was substanial. Some of the heirs took it in their stride and lived regular lives, while others were affected differently.
When I saw the text to THE FLEISCHER STORY, I noticed that Leslie seemed focused on too many judgemental conclusions about Max's personal life without really knowing all of the circumstances, true or false. He had gotten a lot of negative material from Joe, who in his right may have had an "ax to grind." Leslie accidentally offended Joe Fleischer just before I was able to get to him. I received one rather curt letter from him, and was never able to make further contact.
My take on this is that due to his experience, educational, and maturity level at the time, Leslie was not seasoned enough as a researcher and writer because he failed to back up remarks made by people at advanced age with documented facts. Instead, he took whatever someone told him on face value and added it to the text. This is a particlar problem with quoting from the transcription of Joe Adamson's 1968 Oral History interview with Dave Fleischer. Dave's recollections of his early life seem more credible, but the details going into his business relationship with Max are less detailed, and suggest indications of psychological blocks due to his resentments and jealousies of Max, plus the associated guilt on his part, due to his actions that aggrevated the situation between them. But they both had issues which they seemed unable to resolve.
When I met with Dave in 1976, I remained focued on him, keeping him talking about himself. Doing this, I learned more about him and his career, especally after the end of Fleischer Studios. But it was clear on the part of Dave's second wife, Mae (Schartz) that they considered Max as nothing, and that "Dave was the whole thing." Perhaps this was a form of denial to cushion the blow of loosing what they had, being relegated to living in a Hollywood Apartment on Social Security.
I suggested that Leslie refrain from turning this, the only book on the subject into a HOLLYWOOD BABYLON expose, and stick with telling the story of Max's career, the studio, and how the cartoons were made. This, I felt was what the people wanted to know, and was the most interesting part of the story. But Leslie made some unfortunate, unflattering, and questionable remarks, such as stating that "Max was mentally lazy," a remark that has been stricken from revised editions. There was further antagonism that continued to fuel between Leslie and Richard that made this situation difficult as well, delaying the release of the book to 1976 instead of 1975 as originally scheduled.
Around 1980, Michael Dobbs had written an article for FUNNYWORLD, with the announcement of him being an "authorized biographer" of a new book on Max Fleischer. In 1982, Mike visited me in Alexandria, Virgina, when I was a producer for Navy Broadcasting in Washington, D.C. He was in town to do some research at The Library of Congress. He seemed a rather forthright fellow, and very pasionate in his purpose. His knowldege of animation was rudimentary, and some of the examples of still frames he showed me that were intended for his book indicated a limited knowledge of photography of this nature in terms of contrast range, the selection of images, and so on. These were areas that I was willing to assist in, since it is an area where I am qualtied. Although Michael Dobbs continued to announce that he was the "authorized biographer on Max Fleischer," nothing ever materialized unfortuantely. Other than a collection of articles in ANIMANIA called KOKO KOMMENTS, and a few articles in his magazine, ANIMATO, nothing more came to fruition. Sadly, according to the Fleischer Estate, they never heard of " G." Michael Dobbs.
Part of the difficulty in dealing with this issue is that previously no book had been done on the subject of Max Fleischer The inevitable fact is that both of Max's heirs were in the best position to have written their own books years ago and never had done it for some unknown reason. So it has been up to outsiders to tell the story. In all honesty, Leslie stuck his neck out, and did it, warts and all. Ruth Kneitel was upset because she claimed that after helping Leslie, he never gave her credit, which frankly is true. Fortunately for me, I am in the acknowlegements, and my research notes taken verbatium made up four of the chapters, including details on the Rotoscope, all of Max's patent application drawings, details on the Miami Studio, and some information about the Jam Handy period.
For years, Ruth was supposed to have been writing her book on Max Fleischer. She finally passed away about three or four years ago. It was at that time, that I received a series of mysterious phone calls from someone claiming to represent "Fleischer Archives." Knowing that Fleischer Studios never kept anything, I was skeptical of these phones calls, especially when the caller was asking me specific information about "films in my collection." I never indicated that I had films since I did not know who I was speaking with.
Three times I cordially asked how this person came to be calling me, and finally he told me that one of the officers in ASIFA had referred him to me. To be certain, I called Richard Fleischer to verify that this person was indeed in his employ. I told Richard that if he did not know this person, I would not give him any information. Richard said it was "Okay, he's working for us. Just don't spend a lot of time with him."
The "Fleischer Rep" came to my home on a Monday evening a week before Thanksgiving, 2001 and spent two hours with me. By this time, I had had my first edition of the OUT OF THE INKWELL program on the market for a year. I showed him portions of it, and the rep said, "Oh, they should have no problem here." This remark was made in light of the Fleischer's dislike of the Cabarga book, and there seemed to be some concern about what I was saying in my programs about Max. I finally held up a file folder and said, "Look, I have a file of correspondence with Richard Fleischer going back to 1972, (30 years). Why don't you take the tape to Richard's attorney, have him see it, and we will then talk." Two days later, I received a phone call stating that they were interested meeting with me on the premise of helping Richard finish his book.
After two weeks of nothing happening, I approached Richard directly at a restoration screeing at the Hollywood Egyptian Theater, held on December 1st. It was then I met the attorney, Stan Handman, who had seen my tape, and passed it on the Richard. Several months went by without the meeting taking place. I gathered by this time that Richard decided to go it alone, and a year had then passed. When I last spoke with Richard in November, 2003, he was proofreading the text.
I have since been dealing with Stan Handman, the Fleischer Studios attorney and Richard's son Mark, since Richard is 85 and not well now. We are trying to push the concept of a two-hour special on A&E, and have been doing so for three years. I've had the rought cut finished for five years now, and all the clearances concerning film clip and music licenses have been a royal nightmare to deal with because of the bad contracts that were written 60-70 years ago, and the general lack of certain other records that do not seem to exist.
All the above aside, we are fortunate that in the last 30 years a number of books on Animation History have been written. For detailed chronology, one should look to those sources for historical facts. The value of a book written by the son of Max Fleischer has the potential of offering insight to the man himself, making him less of an enigma. Richard's accounts of his father's career may not be completely accurate, but this is not as important as
his impressions of his father as a man. That is Richard's true value in telling this story, as he, more than anyone, is in the posiiton to tell us about his father, having grown up around his father's activities. In this, his statements have credibility for their point of view.
I have spoken with all of the heirs and some of the grandchildren. They all have been consistantly gracious and warm with me, and treated me like a "surrogate" family member. I believe this is due to the fact that no other researcher has come to them to seek their impressions and recollections. In stead, much of what had been written was based on fabrications. But it is because of people like Leslie Cabarga, Mark Langer, and myself who have done the work and research, that present day Internet Fleischer experts exist. And if they learn the truth, that's what matters the most.
Lastly, for all the years I've been involved, it appears that I may very well be the only researcher on the subject of Max Fleischer who actually met him. It happened when he dropped by during my interview at Jam Handy and talked to me for 20 minutes. But that is another story.:betty:
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