High Definition cartoon transfers

[Steve Stanch]

Wow.... I think I'm ready to jump into the next format finally, or at least muse about it a little.

High definition can be really, really beautiful- as you folks know who have the Blue Ray players. I saw some of Pinocchio at a friend's house recently and actually thought it looked TOO good- all the subtle detail and film grain were missing, leaving many scenes flatter and not anywhere near as atmospheric as a nice 35mm Technicolor print.

I had a few Nitrate cartoons transferred a few days back at a large post house here called Grace and Wild. Over the years I've transferred a lot of film there, though this is the first time I've transferred in High Definition for myself. The quality is astonishing off a 35mm print. I did both a Tom and Jerry Van Beuren (A Swiss Trick) and a Fleischer Koko the Clown (Modeling). Both were transferred full frame.... and of course the frame for a silent film is bigger than that of a sound film. When I get the digital copy I'll post some stills. What astonishes me is how close a good transfer can look to watching a film copy- the resolution and focus are fantastic. I did both these transfers for two reasons-to see the difference in starting with a HD file and reducing to standard def for release compared to starting with a standard def and also because these are Nitrate prints- at some point they should probably go to an archive to live. A good transfer will sometimes even make you reconsider the qualities of a film. I wish I could get them ALL in 35mm....

Of course, the major releases are coming right from the negs usually, so they'll look better than a print- but I have to wonder now how good Gulliver's Travels will REALLY look once a good IB technicolor print is transferred properly in the correct aspect ratio. If I can keep from going broke (!) I think that will be on the agenda. I'm down to just a few DVD releases now in progress as well as working on two short films, so I'm excited about these all wrapping and onto new things!

Did anyone buy that Gulliver?

[Tom Stathes]

Came across a nitrate of MODELING, eh? That's great....the circulating 16mm prints are so, well, icky in comparison. I think the best place for nitrates to live is at LoC when you're done copying them.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Steve, I think Disney does a lot of digital manipulation to their films, hence the grain free, smooth, flat look to their recent releases on DVD and Blu-ray. Of course I have no way to prove that, it just looks like it was fiddled with to me.

I'm glad to here that you're making the leap to HD. When properly done, the results look great to me.

[Gasmask Ted]

Are you considering including a hi def video data file (playable on a fast enough computer) of one of these on a future release (or on a bonus disc)?

[Steve Stanch]

I've thought about doing a High Def data file in addition- they compress pretty small size-wise and can look beautiful. The leap is one that needs to be taken eventually, but I do think the transition will be slow as others have said.

I do wish that high def transfer was cheaper at this point- maybe someday soon....

I won the print of Modeling a little while back Tom... bought the 16mm from you to fill in any missing frames (there are a good amount of splices in the Nitrate and brittle sprockets- though the transfer went without a hitch- the Spirit Telecines are sprocketless (it uses the sprocket holes to line up the picture) so it ran pretty perfectly. There is no comparison between the two though! I didn't get a chance to do the other short I won at the same time as Modeling (An Egyptian Gyp) but hope to soon....

[Ray Pointer]

I've thought about doing a High Def data file in addition- they compress pretty small size-wise and can look beautiful. The leap is one that needs to be taken eventually, but I do think the transition will be slow as others have said.

I do wish that high def transfer was cheaper at this point- maybe someday soon....

I won the print of Modeling a little while back Tom... bought the 16mm from you to fill in any missing frames (there are a good amount of splices in the Nitrate and brittle sprockets- though the transfer went without a hitch- the Spirit Telecines are sprocketless (it uses the sprocket holes to line up the picture) so it ran pretty perfectly. There is no comparison between the two though! I didn't get a chance to do the other short I won at the same time as Modeling (An Egyptian Gyp) but hope to soon....


But don't you find that switching from one film gage to another shows up, especially since the entire issue is higher resolution? The 16mm prints of MODEDLING that have been in circulation for the last 30 some years all came from the same source, the LOC 35mm print, which I have archived. The 16mm prints tend to be higher in contrast. I am hoping that you've had the opportunity to come across a 16mm print that does not suffer from this sort of image degradation. The problem with switching between film gages is that the grain structure and resolution can vary and the inserts become obvious. But in many cases, the new digital techniques are helping us overcome some of these issues that were problems in the past. By the way, it should come as no surprise that I might know something about this film.

[Steve Stanch]

I haven't patched the film together yet, but I bet in High Def the change in format (and quality) will be even more obvious. It will be a challenge for sure.. did you combine 16 and 35 prints on some of your collections?

I'll have to go back and look at the LOC copy again as well as the 16 print I have (I'm not sure what source that print was from-and I haven't looked at the print yet.... I AM hoping it's an ok one).

Of course it comes as no surprise that you know a LOT about this and many other films Ray... what are you asking or suggesting? ;). It will appear on the upcoming collection 'Stop Motion Madness', featuring stop motion animation from the teens into the 50's. So far there are commentaries by Bob Baker, folks from Screen Novelties, Ken Priebe and others.

Here's a sneak peek of the package in progress- with beautiful art by Stuart Mckissick.

[Ray Pointer]

I haven't patched the film together yet, but I bet in High Def the change in format (and quality) will be even more obvious. It will be a challenge for sure.. did you combine 16 and 35 prints on some of your collections?

I'll have to go back and look at the LOC copy again as well as the 16 print I have (I'm not sure what source that print was from-and I haven't looked at the print yet.... I AM hoping it's an ok one). Of course it comes as no surprise that you know a LOT about this and many other films Ray... what are you asking or suggesting? ;).


The amusing thing was that Del Walker did a review of the first volume of OUT OF THE INKWELL and "assumed" that THE OUIJA BOARD was pieced together from several sources, including "possibly a 28mm" source. This was absolute nonsense. There was no "piecing together" of anything. He was impressed with the overall clarity and could not tell whether the sources were 35mm, 28mm, or 16mm. So that is to my credit. I NEVER intermixed film gages within the same cartoon presentation. If it came from a 35mm source, I stayed with that gage. If it was 16mm, I stayed with that gage. So long as the results are good, there is no need to pull back the curtain to reveal the man behind it and what he is doing. I really do not think that anyone is really interested or impressed with that.

Once again, my DVD packages are "programs," not "collections" as is popularly termed here. Anyone who has bought my product knows that they are getting far more than a "collection" of cartoons, because I go to great lengths to organize the contents into themes and informative programs with documentary style content. Since I pioneered this approach back in 1999, I believe it is fair to say that I am the only producer who has been releasing vintage material in this manner and at this level. Because of this, these programs have become integrated into animation and film studies courses at universities. In fact, I used them in my own courses at Kendall College as well. With this understanding, I hope we are clear about references to my product as programs, not "collections."

As for my last remark, I am not implying anything beyond what I stated. But by your mentioning of various people participating in commentaries, perhaps I should return the question, "what are you asking or suggesting?":tweety:

[Steve Stanch]

Yes.

I'm glad your programs continue to be well received, and of course people know they are getting more than just a 'collection' when they buy a Thunderbean title too.... it is nice to be able to share the films (and hopefully make enough to be able to produce the next collections, er, programs, er ... heck..... productions!

I'll post stills soon....

[Bugsy-Kun]

Hi, Steve! I have a question to ask you about HD formats:
Did HD can give justice to theatrical shorts if they cared preciously? Because i seen some HD formats from old cartoons (Pink Panther shorts) but they cropped the top and the bottom who gives the impression it's on HD unnaturally. I'm cared to see the much official print of a film possible but i want more when it was originally made, not just reissued copies. I know this question can have a doubt of you, but i want just to ask as well you're a expert for collecting rare films and taking them seriously.

Keep your great work! I wish we can see your collections in our local stores! :cool:

[J. A. Boschen]

Here's a sneak peek of the package in progress- with beautiful art by Stuart Mckissick.

I Love the artwork Steve! Can't wait to see the contents!

[Ray Pointer]

Yes.

I'm glad your programs continue to be well received, and of course people know they are getting more than just a 'collection' when they buy a Thunderbean title too.... it is nice to be able to share the films (and hopefully make enough to be able to produce the next collections, er, programs, er ... heck..... productions!

Do we have too many options?

[cpdavison]

Yes.

I'm glad your programs continue to be well received, and of course people know they are getting more than just a 'collection' when they buy a Thunderbean title too.... it is nice to be able to share the films (and hopefully make enough to be able to produce the next collections, er, programs, er ... heck..... productions!

I'll post stills soon....

Steve, I look forward to seeing your upcoming Thunderbean Po-Tay'-tohs and I hope everyone continues to buy Inkwell Images Po-Tah'-ohs.

Craig D.
:o

[Ray Pointer]

Steve, I look forward to seeing your upcoming Thunderbean Po-Tay'-tohs and I hope everyone continues to buy Inkwell Images Po-Tah'-ohs.
Craig D.
:o

So far, no one has thrown a rotten To-may-toe, To-mah-toe!

[cpdavison]

So far, no one has thrown a rotten To-may-toe, To-mah-toe!

And why should they? You both offer top-notch products!

Keep up the good work, guys.

Craig D.

[rex racer]

The amusing thing was that Del Walker did a review of the first volume of OUT OF THE INKWELL and "assumed" that THE OUIJA BOARD was pieced together from several sources, including "possibly a 28mm" source. This was absolute nonsense. There was no "piecing together" of anything.

So far, no one has thrown a rotten To-may-toe, To-mah-toe!:rolleyes:

Ray, while you may recollect a review as nonsensical as this, I can assure you it was NOT penned by yours truly. The DVDToons website has been defunct for several years now, but I still retain all writings and images for the reviews I contributed there. I'd be happy to forward you my review for your Out of the Inkwell releases to jog your memory if you deem it necessary.

Dw

[Ray Pointer]

:rolleyes:

Ray, while you may recollect a review as nonsensical as this, I can assure you it was NOT penned by yours truly. The DVDToons website has been defunct for several years now, but I still retain all writings and images for the reviews I contributed there. I'd be happy to forward you my review for your Out of the Inkwell releases to jog your memory if you deem it necessary. Dw

I was under the impression that the review using your name was indeed from you. As a matter of fact, we had corresponeded about this matter.
The issue first of all was that the review was largely based on surface assumptions without verifying the facts. As you may recall, it strongly suggested that you, or whomever was supposed to be the reviewer for DVDToons using the name "Del Walker" check such technical issues with me considering that I was in the best position to know the details about the film gages used since I was the one who did the work. A second review on KO-KO SONG CAR-TUNES was sent to me in advance, to which I corrected an "assumption" that the tracks had been re-processed. They had not been. That review was edited, although a statement was included "According to Ray Pointer, these tracks have not been reprocessed," in words to that effect. While this may have substantiated the claim, such as statement has a double edge that raises suspicions as to the accuracy of my statement. This is where careful and responsible writing is crucial--an area that I am most concerned and sensitive to.

Please understand that I was most appreciative of the attention given to my releases, as I recognized the effort that was put into writing these reviews. And as I also said, that while there is a tremendous interest in details and facts, I was sure that reporting these things accurately was of great importance.

While the purpose of this discussion is not to debate or defend a review from seven or eight years ago, nor defend a post that I made, the point of my bringing it up was in reference to the problems associated with the mixing of film gages in assembling a DVD program, and the associated perceptions of the results. This becomes more of a critical issue now that we are looking at HD images. And THIS is the context of this reference, not the review itself.

While this is not intended as any disrespect to you or that reviewer, nor is it a lack of appreciation, the point is that this review reflected a limited knowledge of film since the review clearly indicated that the author did not know what he was looking at. In the process, he has the power to create an interest in my product, or destroy its reputation simply by a few carelessly made remarks.

I have spent my entire life working with film. While I do not know absolutely EVERYTHING about it, I do know quite a bit more about it than that reviewer. Accordingly, I encouraged him to check with me before exposing himself to the public embarassment of making statements that defeat the purpose of an otherwise well intended review. THAT is the story of the incident-which in a sense was a precursor to the purpose of this discuss, the merits of HD images.

[Ray Pointer]

Wow.... I think I'm ready to jump into the next format finally, or at least muse about it a little. High definition can be really, really beautiful- as you folks know who have the Blue Ray players.

By the way, it's BLU-RAY. Being a "Ray," I should know! Am I blue...am I blu?:D

[Steve Stanch]

Does this mean you're a Blu-Ray when you're down a little, a green-Ray when envious, a Red-Ray when angry, and a Ray-of-light when being encouraging to other video producers?

Maybe someday they'll make Blu Rays out of Blu cheese, so they can be enjoyed as a film as well as on a cracker. That would be innovative! :)

[Steve Stanch]

Go the high def transfer back... here's a few pix- one reduced, one full res....

[nickramer]

Go the high def transfer back... here's a few pix- one reduced, one full res....
Those are nice transfers. Good job, Steve! Can't wait for the ones used in the upcoming "Stop Motion Madness" DVD.

[Thad]

Hey, Steve, glad to see you are doing well with the high-def transfers. They look great. BTW, can you get back to me on the film print you still owe me? Thanks.

[Ray Pointer]

Does this mean you're a Blu-Ray when you're down a little, a green-Ray when envious, a Red-Ray when angry, and a Ray-of-light when being encouraging to other video producers?


Such is the fate of being a "multi-facited" individual!:p

[Ray Pointer]

Those are nice transfers. Good job, Steve! Can't wait for the ones used in the upcoming "Stop Motion Madness" DVD.

I do see an abrassion on the right side of the frame in the MODELING sample. I did not see a response about the piecing together between the 35mm Nitrate and the 16mm source.

[Steve Stanch]

Hey, Steve, glad to see you are doing well with the high-def transfers. They look great. BTW, can you get back to me on the film print you still owe me? Thanks.

On it's way! A beautiful print too....

[Tom Stathes]

I noticed it too, Ray...could that be some slight nitrate deterioration, Steve?

[Steve Stanch]

I don't think the print is leaving the planet yet- but it was fairly well-worn.... I think they are just scratches......

[cpdavison]

Honestly, Steve. How is this any better than the version of "MODELING" I already have on my 1989 Video Dimensions VHS tape? I mean, come on, it was recorded at the LP speed and everything!

[Tom Stathes]

Oh, Craiggo, don't go ragging on Video Dimensions...their "Disney's Beginnings" tape was the start of it all for me way back when!

[Steve Stanch]

Awsome. :)

Yeah, the heck with this nonsense about trying to put out good versions of films.. it doesn't matter in the bigger picture at all, does it?

Oh, and that copy of modeling is beautiful! ;)

(the title does show some nitrate fading- though not through the body of the print so much...)

[cbrubaker]

I notice the print is a bit brown. Are you going to click on the "grayscale" button when you release it or do you leave it brown like that?

[Tom Stathes]

Charles, that would be a sepia tint done when the print was manufactured. While I don't like adding tints to b/w prints, it's usually nice to leave them alone when found that way. ;)

[Ray Pointer]

Natural sepia tone prints are not this saturated. It seems that this is an aspect of digital--saturating chroma. Have you noticed that digital broadcasts seem too color saturated? But is it an obsession simply because it is a Nitrate print for it's own sake? Frankly I am not seeing a great deal more "definition" in these frames than is already seen in the established 35mm source that I released in 2001. It seems the wheel has already been invented. Aside from Hi-def and Blu-Ray for their own sake, what is really being gained here, especially if the Nitrate has so many problems as have been described?

[Steve Stanch]

Believe it or not, the actual sepia on the print is actually a pretty close match to the video source- it is that saturated on this print (but I would have thought the same had I not had the actual print in my hand). I do hate seeing the oversaturation that you see on silent films sometimes with bright, inacruate colors. In terms of condition, I still haven't compared to the others yet, but this print looks quite nice.

I've found the image quality of high def to be quite outstanding, and I'm glad to have a version that is as nice as it is... and the step down from a high def version to a DVD looks much finer than a transfer that started as standard def (that was the reason for the experiment- besides archiving a good quality master before the Nitrate leaves the planet at some point). I hadn't been sold on the merits until this transfer session. If I could afford to do everything high def I would, then do a step down for the DVD version. There's no fields to remove, no video artifacting at all and a much cleaner source all around to fix anything that needs fixing.

Seeing the high def version next to a standard def is like night and day, though I think it will be quite a while before the smaller producers make the jump....

Oh, and don't worry Ray- you're still king of the Kokos!

[Steve Stanch]

But is it an obsession simply because it is a Nitrate print for it's own sake? Frankly I am not seeing a great deal more "definition" in these frames than is already seen in the established 35mm source that I released in 2001. It seems the wheel has already been invented. Aside from Hi-def and Blu-Ray for their own sake, what is really being gained here, especially if the Nitrate has so many problems as have been described?

Fair enough to ask. It's not so much an obsession as it is an interest in technology.

Since you've asked what is being gained here, here you are! Here's a comparison of frames from Ray's very fine standard def version (highly recommended if you don't already have it!) and the new transfer.

Interestingly, as I started to compare the copies I noticed this print has a lot more footage than the LOC one; there's quite a bit of missing live action as well as animation (some of the stills here show some of the formally missing footage). That in itself is enough reason of course. Notice the edges as well...

[Steve Stanch]

And more....

[Steve Stanch]

and a few more...

[Ray Pointer]

I'm afraid that this medium may not do justice to the illustrations. Part of the problem with the sepia tint is that it appears to darken the image and lessen "resolution" as displayed here. Also, the Internet display is not reproducing the tint, as it appears a bit too orange in some cases. If you sampled the frames from my old VHS release as this appears, it can't compare to digital. The DVD version looks better than this. But I'll let the public decide which versions they find more appealing.

On another note, it might be worth understanding exactly WHAT is it that is so desireable about Nitrate prints. Keep in mind that the term Nitrate pertains to the specific plastic film base that the film was made from. It is not so much the nature of the film base that is of importance as the silver nitrate concentration in the film's emulsion. THAT is what is the area of focus. While there are those who will argue the merits of Nitrate prints, which are beautiful, part of those merits are based on the fact that they are closer to the camera orginal negative and have a high concentration of silver nitrate which makes the image so beautiful to look at. But this is a matter of historical significance as well. If you have noticed, there is a certain point by 1925 when the appearance of film images improves displaying greater resolution and definition. I wonder who else knows why this was.

[Ray Pointer]

Fair enough to ask. It's not so much an obsession as it is an interest in technology. Since you've asked what is being gained here, here you are! Here's a comparison of frames from Ray's very fine standard def version (highly recommended if you don't already have it!) and the new transfer.
Interestingly, as I started to compare the copies I noticed this print has a lot more footage than the LOC one; there's quite a bit of missing live action as well as animation (some of the stills here show some of the formally missing footage). That in itself is enough reason of course. Notice the edges as well...

The key element in the added clarity as you surely know is the elimination of the 3/2 pulldown aspect of telecine transfers. At the time my original transfers were done 10 years ago, this was the standard. With that, people found them extremely acceptable, present company included.

Presently, we doing all transfers by scanning similar to what you are describing. We released our first Hi-Def and Blu-Ray editions of the Houdini feature, THE MAN FROM BEYOND nearly a year ago with a very favorable response from the severest technical critics. We have been continuing research in electronic restorations as applied to serials, and are in the process of applying what has been developed to several upcoming releases that will be a big surprise to everyone. Glad to see you are following the lead.

[Ray Pointer]

Oh, and don't worry Ray- you're still king of the Kokos!

That's KOO-KOOs, Stevie!:p

[Keith Paynter]

Very impressive, Steve...yes, an HD transfer will serve you very well for both BD and standard DVD. Looking forward to the finished product.

My own lo-tech version of HD transfers (Factory EIKI telecine NT-0 5-blade, sync motor and preamp out, captured with Sony 1080p AVCHD camcorder) have yielded quite good results for my own personal use, and also look very good when reduced for standard def DVD.

(btw, do you still need my 'A Few Quick Facts' clips??)

http://24.72.65.20/snafu/diadys2.jpg

[Steve Stanch]

.

(btw, do you still need my 'A Few Quick Facts' clips??)

http://24.72.65.20/snafu/diadys2.jpg

Yes ;)

[Ray Pointer]

Fair enough to ask. It's not so much an obsession as it is an interest in technology.

Since you've asked what is being gained here, here you are! Here's a comparison of frames from Ray's very fine standard def version (highly recommended if you don't already have it!) and the new transfer.

Interestingly, as I started to compare the copies I noticed this print has a lot more footage than the LOC one; there's quite a bit of missing live action as well as animation (some of the stills here show some of the formally missing footage). That in itself is enough reason of course. Notice the edges as well...

The issue here is not so much the image source coming from 35mm, which is the source of both examples, but what the DVD and Hi-Def/Blu-Ray displays. The frame grabs from my DVD display artifacting due to compression. The Hi-Def frames do not. This is comparing an apple to an orange. Come to think of it, the Hi-Def frames are "orange."

[Steve Stanch]

Yes.... and of course other factors.

I was most interested in seeing what the difference would be in starting with a high def source and reducing it to standard def for DVD release. I've just done that and I'm very impressed... Of course, there are all sorts of factors in what the image quality will look like:

a) Quality of the 35mm/16mm material
b) High or standard def transfer was used as the source
c) Tape/mastering
c) If a telecine was used or if the image was scanned
d) The kind of telecine used for transfer (This was was on a Thompson Spirit 2k). I've done transfers on a Rank, Bosch, Sony, Tobin, Elmo TRV, Moviestuff's Workprinter, Cineglyph (an adapted Rank Turbo at Crest Digital). Some transfers still use a 5 blade system, like the old broadcast RCA and other Telecines or the Elmo TRV machine.
e) The colorist/ Telecine operator
f) If the image started in standard def, the compression is much better if the 3/2 pulldown is removed, making a progressive version.
g) The TYPE of compression used in the digital file in CAPTURE and program used for mpeg compression.

I've found the same material can look like entirely different prints depending on the combination of these. I've found the little Tobin Machines can give a really nice picture, except frame by frames there's some artifacting from the type of camera in the machines. I've had a Bosch transfer look fantastic and terrible- because of the operator. Different machines have different cutoff of image as well, and some allow for a lot most adjustment than others in both image quality and size (When possible I always try to underscan the film, so the whole image from the film appears on the transfer). I've retransferred quite a few things to try and improve the quality of a particular title. There's a few Telecine operators/colorists that have been amazing in getting the best quality out of material (the guy at Northridge film and video transfer is the Han Solo of Rank Telecines- this older souped up machine (with his adjustments in transfer) yields perhaps the best results I've ever seen from 16mm prints. I'd put their work alongside the best new machines and most colorists-and they'd still win!

For the Tom and Jerry DVD, I'm using mostly new transfers done in the last 3-4 years as I've gathered many, with a big push here at the end. I was able to transfer a few from 35mm prints in 1988 and 89, though I'm unable to get those back all these years later to bring the image size down a little more- they still look quite nice though...

[Ray Pointer]

Your " resume' " is impressive!:bosko:

[Steve Stanch]

Thanks Ray!

The Tom and Jerry DVD is coming together! Here's the inked cover art by Milton Knight.... he's a great friend and enthusiastic fan of the Van Beuren cartoons. His work in the Classics Illustrated anthologies is amazing...

Here's his website: http://www.miltonknight.net/

[Ray Pointer]

Milton is a great guy and fantastic artist to be sure. But Steve, why have we never seen your own art on your covers? Enquiring minds want to know.

[Steve Stanch]

You know, I've been meaning to draw more of them!

I really do like having collaboration- plus I'm always so busy with all the other aspects of the discs, between editing, designing menus, packaging, authoring, and basically every other thing involved with the productions... sometimes I run out of time as it is!. I've done some art for the Tom and Jerry disc already as well.

I have done art for the Aesop's Fables DVD cover, Cartoons for Victory, Cubby and others- I almost did the cover art for the Tom and Jerry set this time around...... maybe I'll even ask you to do one in the future! ;)

[Ray Pointer]

[QUOTE=Steve Stanch;151840]... I'm always so busy with all the other aspects of the discs, between editing, designing menus, packaging, authoring, and basically every other thing involved with the productions... sometimes I run out of time as it is! [QUOTE]

If you like collaborations, perhaps we should get together on a book about the trials and tribulations of producing independent DVDs for the animation audience. You and I certainly know all about the above mentioned details. But when done right the public should be able to take them for granted, which is the way it should be. But it is not automatic process, and with the added challenges of the new HD format we are working in, this adds more complications and time to the production process.

[Steve Stanch]

I would love to collaborate on a book with you, detailing considerations in using both old material as well as creating new material. It is aflow with trials and tribulations!


Tom and Jerry is almost done. It's now a 2 disc set. It's looking terrific; I did the final film transfers this morning. There are still some things I'd love to update with even better material of course- but unless the negs or 35mm prints show up magically, that will be another x-number of years! I'll be announcing a pre-release tomorrow.....

[Ray Pointer]

I would love to collaborate on a book with you, detailing considerations in using both old material as well as creating new material. It is aflow with trials and tribulations!
.....

"Now let's see, who do I know that can write?"
Bluto