Dave Gerstein, you've done it again!

[kaseykockroach]

http://ramapithblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/tho-mas-come-up-and-see-some-rarities.html
Wouldn't be too shocking if I eventually found myself reading "Gerstein finds original Yankee Doodle Mouse!".

[oceansoul]

Wow! This looks sexy. Hope they will be available on restored copies soon.

[Brandon Panther]

Perhaps it will be David that will uncover the lost ending to "The Heckling Hare".

Or maybe the trailer to "The Return of the Pink Panther."

[Leviathan]

Dhave is just on fire, isn't he?

I don't think anyone thought any T&J originals existed anywhere up until now.

[Jack G.]

I like those title cards.

Hooray for Mr Gerstein!

[Jon Cooke]

Amazing stuff, David!

[cartoonfan4ever]

Those title cards look fantastic! And I really like the pencil sketch at the bottom. I wonder why their names are exed out? I guess they were still playing around with the format.

[Matthew Hunter]

Those are really cool!:tomcat::jerry:

[cbrubaker]

Neat discovery!

Too bad you didn't find them earlier. Maybe Warner Bros. would've been interested in having those prints transferred for the DVD set.

[Vdubdavid]

Too bad you didn't find them earlier. Maybe Warner Bros. would've been interested in having those prints transferred for the DVD set.

Judging by the quality of the lions' share of the shorts on the DVDs, I don't think they would have been interested.

But Mr. Gerstein, I salute you! My reaction at seeing these wasn't quite what Thad says his was in the comments, but I pulled up the shorts on Youtube and let the opening music play as I gazed at these lost treasures!

If WB ever does decide to restore ALL the MGM shorts properly, we've got some real treats in store!

[nickramer]

I sure hope the titles get restored someday. We really need an actual complete boxset of the H-B Tom and Jerry shorts.

[Matthew Hunter]

With a little digital magic, I think I can create a reasonable facsimile of what "Midnight Snack" might've looked like with these titles. Stay "tooned"....

[The Coyote Never Wins]

That would be pretty cool, Matthew.

Anyway, I already said this over at his blog, but I was pretty blown away by this find. I had no idea any of this still existed anywhere.

[Matt the Y]

It's pretty interesting to see that Kenneth Muse is actually credited as "Ken" in the original titles to "Mouse Trouble". It's worth wondering when they finally decided to start crediting him as the more formal "Kenneth" in the opening titles (and why the name alteration was made as well.....).

[Mike]

That's just amazing stuff. I wonder if someday some of that might make its way to DVD. But if not....it was still great to see it.

You know, perhaps it's because of the age I am, growing up in the VHS era when not only were there oodles of video compilations of classic cartoons, but "let's record it for posterity" was like a household phrase....but for whatever the reason, it's still kinda tough to think back to the 40s and 50s, when studios like Warners and MGM cut the titles *off the original negatives* when putting together the reissues, and not have a "What were they thinking?????" type of response. I know, no one dreamed back then there would ever be a market for classic cartoons quite like the one that developed. But still, the fact that it was done still amazes me sometimes.

Mike

[Matthew Hunter]

Here ya go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T_rzgCuNH0

[LooneyTuneLover]

Wow I never seen those before.:D

Here ya go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T_rzgCuNH0


Its nice to see it like that, good edit.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Here ya go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T_rzgCuNH0

That's great! You certainly won't see that on CN! It also shows the rivalry between the two, instead of the cards where they are shown smiling at each other.

[Vdubdavid]

Holy cow, that's perfect, Matt! It's interesting how your restoration explifies how the titles were originally placed in time with the opening music, with the short's title coming last. Contrast this with the current reissue, where the title is placed first and we get Fred Quimby's name last!

Here's a question, would anyone look for this short's first reissue titles from 1948 (the current print is from the mid 50s)?

[jonmayo15]

Here ya go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T_rzgCuNH0
Hey Matt, what program do you edit these on? It looks good, the pnly thing I would do is that instead of having the cards fade in/out, I'd have them dissolve into each other, but otherwise nice job!

[Brandon Panther]

Hey Matt, what program do you edit these on? It looks good, the pnly thing I would do is that instead of having the cards fade in/out, I'd have them dissolve into each other, but otherwise nice job!
He used Windows Movie Maker. My WMM still isn't working.

[Thad]

He's credited as "Ken Muse" in the original ZOOT CAT as well.

Otherwise with these titles: Bill Littlejohn was given a credit in the original FINE FEATHERED FRIEND, but his name was omitted in the reissue. Same goes for Walt Clinton (who was responsible for the scene with those crazy primitive horses) in WILD AND WOOLFY.

[Der Captain]

Although the TV print clearly features the 50's-era T&J card, I always thought the title card with the silhouetted Jerry carrying the candle was from the original release.

[The "Chase"]

Although the TV print clearly features the 50's-era T&J card, I always thought the title card with the silhouetted Jerry carrying the candle was from the original release.

Even as a kid, I thought that silhouetted Jerry looked completely different from the animation of the short. Thanks goodness I was right!

Also, thanks to Dave, at least the fronting of "The End" used to be there for the opening. And for that, I too salute and thank Dave for the research.

Now, when we can see original Disney credits? :p

[Bugsy-Kun]

Although the TV print clearly features the 50's-era T&J card, I always thought the title card with the silhouetted Jerry carrying the candle was from the original release.

Me too i always think that. Thanks goodness the truth is revealed. Those original titles should be keeping safety.

[Vdubdavid]

Matt, not to take anything away from that marvelous reconstruction, but I think Mr. Gerstein actually posted the "Supervised By..." card from Fraidy Cat instead of The Midnight Snack.

Looking at the MPDDA number on the rediscovered card, it matches the reissue titles of the former instead of the latter.

Just something I noticed.

[David Gerstein]

Matt, not to take anything away from that marvelous reconstruction, but I think Mr. Gerstein actually posted the "Supervised By..." card from Fraidy Cat instead of The Midnight Snack.Whoa, you're *good!*

I mentioned that the "supervised by" and T&J intro cards were identical for the two of them, and it seems I proved it—unintentionally getting the two mixed up when sorting out my screengrabs for the blog posting.
I'll try and fix it later, though apart from the numbers there's really no other difference.

[Thad]

Dhave, after that little faux paus, I don't think I can ever take you or your research seriously again. Proof that you should have me proofread your MGM cartoon title posts before you make them public (as it is me whose idea it was to find these titles, and fund the trips). :daffy:

[David Gerstein]

Fund the trips? Really? In that case you still owe me a bunch!

(But man, anyway—for everyone's info, it was Thad who first suggested I research the MGM copyright synopses in March and April, and he was one of several who pitched in towards the initial costs. The synopses already helped Thad identify and locate this copy (http://thadkomorowski.com/2009/05/15/another-alteration/) of the original WILD AND WOOLFY: the only original on that one I'm aware of, with different text on the wanted poster than we see in the common reissue.)

Updhate: My T&J blog post now has the correct "Supervised By" card for THE MIDNIGHT SNACK. I'll repost the FRAIDY CAT version of the card soon. Thanks, Vdubdavid.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

The Wikipedia articles for both Mouse Trouble and The Midnight Snack now include pics of the original titles as well as the reissue ones. I highly doubt that these pictures were on those articles until very recently. Check it out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Midnight_Snack

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Trouble

[J. A. Boschen]

Awsome post David. Just out of curiosity however do you happen to know what the original end titles look like to Mouse Trouble?

[Thad]

Awsome post David. Just out of curiosity however do you happen to know what the original end titles look like to Mouse Trouble?

It's the same end title we're used to. Minus the "Made in Hollywood, U.S.A." tag.

[matiasdf]

Seriously, do you think there's any possibility that these marvelous original titles will ever be seen? The Spotlight Collection and the Droopy DVD set were almost a proof that Warner doesn't give a damn about the MGM cartoons.

Aided by Windows Movie Maker, Virtualdubmod and Avidemux, i recreated the original ''The Midnight Snack". MGM logo taken from the restored Puss Gets The Boot, the short itself was also taken from the dvd. Spanish Dub also taken from the DVD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDEKMNYXRMg&fmt=18

[gabriel_katikos]

He's credited as "Ken Muse" in the original ZOOT CAT as well.

I'm guessing he was also credited as "Ken Muse" in the original releases of THE MILLION DOLLAR CAT, THE BODYGUARD, and PUTTIN' ON THE DOG. I believe he may have also been credited as "Ken Muse" in the original THE MOUSE COMES TO DINNER as well.

[R.J. Smith]

Seriously, do you think there's any possibility that these marvelous original titles will ever be seen? The Spotlight Collection and the Droopy DVD set were almost a proof that Warner doesn't give a damn about the MGM cartoons.

Aided by Windows Movie Maker, Virtualdubmod and Avidemux, i recreated the original ''The Midnight Snack". MGM logo taken from the restored Puss Gets The Boot, the short itself was also taken from the dvd. Spanish Dub also taken from the DVD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDEKMNYXRMg&fmt=18
It got deleted! Upload it again!

[The "Chase"]

It got deleted! Upload it again!

He has a life doc. You can wait...

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

It got deleted! Upload it again!

Since it was removed due to a copyright claim, I don't think it will be uploaded again, since that would mean risking his You Tube account.

[gabriel_katikos]

Out of curiosity, David, do you know what the original end title for Fraidy Cat looks like? And I didn't know that the original print of Mouse Trouble had the "An MGM Tom and Jerry Cartoon" card; I thought it was going to use the blue "A Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Cartoon" card like other MGM cartoons of the time.

Oh, and about that T&J card from Puss n' Toots... I believe it was also used on the original release prints of Dog Trouble (which would also have been the first MGM cartoon to have that red "An MGM Cartoon" card) and The Bowling Alley-Cat.

BTW, that WWII end title from Puss n' Toots would have also been used on the original release print of The Bowling Alley-Cat, while the original release print of Dog Trouble would have used the same WWII end title from Little Gravel Voice (the Puss n' Toots end title has "BUY WAR BONDS AND STAMPS", whereas the Little Gravel Voice end title has "BUY DEFENSE BONDS AND STAMPS").

[Thad]

FRAIDY CAT has the same blue ending as the MGM shorts of the time.

DOG TROUBLE, PUSS N' TOOTS, BOWLING ALLEY CAT, and FINE FEATHERED FRIEND all have the bond/stamp slug. FRIEND also originally had the "Tiger Rag" lion opening.

SUFFERIN' CATS and LONESOME MOUSE originally had "Runnin' Wild" (as did DUMB-HOUNDED originally, and RED HOT RIDING HOOD still does).

BABY PUSS is the first short with the T&J end slug.

[Matt the Y]

FRAIDY CAT has the same blue ending as the MGM shorts of the time.

DOG TROUBLE, PUSS N' TOOTS, BOWLING ALLEY CAT, and FINE FEATHERED FRIEND all have the bond/stamp slug. FRIEND also originally had the "Tiger Rag" lion opening.

SUFFERIN' CATS and LONESOME MOUSE originally had "Runnin' Wild" (as did DUMB-HOUNDED originally, and RED HOT RIDING HOOD still does).

BABY PUSS is the first short with the T&J end slug.


Thanks for the info, Thad!

[Matt the Y]

I find it interesting that MGM titles actually had reoccurring "themes" for release years at first. First, "Tiger Rag" was used for awhile. Then, "Running Wild" was used. The one I'm most familiar with is the one used from around 1943-1946 that opens shorts such as "Mouse Trouble", "Screwball Squirrel", "Baby Puss", "Tee for Two", "The Screwy Truant", "The Bodyguard", "Wild and Woollfy", "Jerky Turkey", "The 'Zoot Cat'", and others from these release seasons. Is this a "Scott Bradley original" or another song that he's quoting?

[gabriel_katikos]

FRAIDY CAT has the same blue ending as the MGM shorts of the time.

DOG TROUBLE, PUSS N' TOOTS, BOWLING ALLEY CAT, and FINE FEATHERED FRIEND all have the bond/stamp slug. FRIEND also originally had the "Tiger Rag" lion opening.

SUFFERIN' CATS and LONESOME MOUSE originally had "Runnin' Wild" (as did DUMB-HOUNDED originally, and RED HOT RIDING HOOD still does).

BABY PUSS is the first short with the T&J end slug.

Wasn't Dog Trouble the first MGM cartoon to have the red "An MGM Cartoon" card? Or was it the last MGM cartoon to have the blue "An MGM Cartoon" card? And I believe Sufferin' Cats, The Lonesome Mouse and The Yankee Doodle Mouse were the only T&J cartoons to have the blue "A Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Cartoon" card that was being used on MGM cartoons of the time.

Oh, and did Fraidy Cat have the blue bond/stamp end title (seen on The Hungry Wolf)? Or did it use the regular blue ending title without the bond/stamp message?

BTW, I think the Barney Bear cartoon Wild Honey also has "Runnin' Wild".

And which half of an original nitrate of The Yankee Doodle Mouse did you find? The half with the original opening titles? Or the half with the original closing titles?

[Tom Stathes]

I can safely interject and say that David is not at liberty to discuss the specifics of nitrates he has inspected.

And while on the subject of D.G., Paging David Gerstein!

[R.J. Smith]

If only we can see more title frames from Thad, we can put more of the puzzle of title card evolution together.

[Jack G.]

I can safely interject and say that David is not at liberty to discuss the specifics of nitrates he has inspected.I assume that has something to do with those pesky lawyers?

[Tom Stathes]

It usually has nothing to do with lawyers...most archives and private collectors don't want crowds of people breaking down their doors.

[Thad]

Keep in mind, also, that I don't have actual copies of these cartoons, and am only going by the notes I took down from reading the copyright synopses, which I don't have access to at the moment. I can say for certain however that "Zoot Cat" had a slightly different title card originally. (Red and green stripes like the suit, rather than the solid green of the reissue. Why did they change it? Damifino.)

[Jack G.]

It usually has nothing to do with lawyers...most archives and private collectors don't want crowds of people breaking down their doors.Well, they don't have to let 'em in or tell people where these treasures are.

While it's in their right, I don't think it's cool to not share electronic images and share historical info
- assuming here that it isn't going to cut into someone's profits.

[Bugsy-Kun]

I just wonder what are seem the original title card for "The Million Dollar Cat". The red title card make look it's gonna be bland. (even for a great entry)

[Tom Stathes]

Well, they don't have to let 'em in or tell people where these treasures are.

While it's in their right, I don't think it's cool to not share electronic images and share historical info
- assuming here that it isn't going to cut into someone's profits.
In many cases, private collectors or the people who donate films to archives do in fact have some sort of commercial interest. In other cases, it's just stubbornness.

[WoodpeckerWoody]

The most common question animation fans/historians face to day are this I think.
Does the cartoon have it original opening and closing titles?
Is this the original theatrical cut or alternative version* of the cartoon?
Is this the original a. ratio** of the cartoon?
Was the film original done in Black and White or was it a color cartoon?


*Director's cut version is hard to considered as censored version since the director changed the cartoon himself, as it was to long, to short, he didn't liked or the producer didn't liked. (I think: Director's cut verion of cartoons are uncommon and many cartoons were only filmed once)
*If cartoon have additional animation to expand the length of the cartoon rather than swap content in the cartoon I wouldn't considered as censored, but clearly it isn't original.
*If cartoon have additional animation that swap material as we see in THE SHOOTING OF DAN McGOO. I consider that a censorship.
*Removing material from cartoon for any given reson after it was first distributed to theaters I consider that as censorship.
**Some cartoons were both made in CinemaScope/widescreen version and full screen, then I consider both forms of the cartoon to be original. I consider croped version as censorship and pan and scan version as well


I do expect that Warner has the copyright to the original title cards of MGM cartoons even if they don't have them in there archive.

I do think it is:shame: that copyright laws are not reformed that way too ensure that copyright holder publish the work in the original form or in the form that is the most original of the work. I think I will leave it until later to post mine Ideas how the copyright should work.

[Jack G.]

In many cases, private collectors or the people who donate films to archives do in fact have some sort of commercial interest. In other cases, it's just stubbornness.Well, that's the way goes.
I just want everybody that wants to enjoy these historical things, be able to.

Unfortunately, people have other goals. :(

[gabriel_katikos]

On the original release of Dog Trouble, did the credit for Hanna and Barbera say "Supervised by Wiliam Hanna and Joseph Barbera" or "Directed by William Hanna and Joseph Barbera"?

[R.J. Smith]

On the original release of Dog Trouble, did the credit for Hanna and Barbera say "Supervised by Wiliam Hanna and Joseph Barbera" or "Directed by William Hanna and Joseph Barbera"?
If we just keep looking, we'll know.

This was around the time "Supervided by" switched to "Directed by" though.

[Tom Stathes]

I feel like every post in this thread deserves a follow-up by the man of the hour, David Gerstein.
Hence my fruitless call which I shall repeat: Paging David Gerstein!

[gabriel_katikos]

BTW, David, do you think you could repost the "Supervised by William Hanna and Joseph Barbera" card from Fraidy Cat?

[David Gerstein]

YAAAAHHHHH! (SCREECH!)

Translation: Busy trying to do ten things at once—but my blog will (amazingly) be updated soon, with original titles among other subjects. Got a Bosko comic serial and the origins of TNT to wrap up, too... no rest for the wicked. What a world.

[Duck Dodgers]

YAAAAHHHHH! (SCREECH!)

Translation: Busy trying to do ten things at once—but my blog will (amazingly) be updated soon, with original titles among other subjects. Got a Bosko comic serial and the origins of TNT to wrap up, too... no rest for the wicked. What a world.

And don't remember me:p

[David Gerstein]

And don't remember me:pAh, but I did remember you—hope you got my e-mail just now.

Okay, fellas... finally updated (http://ramapithblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/october-original-titles.html) the blog with some more original titles. You'll see both FRAIDY CAT and THE ZOOT CAT, plus some Disney rarities from various sources (including the Stathes collection (http://www.cartoonsonfilm.com)).
Things may ease up for me a little after this next week, so I could actually begin to blog again on a semi-regular schedule. God knows I'd like to. Will wonders never cease?

[nickramer]

Wow. The orginal title card for "The Zoot Cat" is very simple but attractive. I also found it intresting that "Just Mickey" was indeed released as "Fiddling Around". Thanks Dave!

Also, great job on the Phantom Blot article you wrote for the D23 site. Keep up the good work.

[Bugsy-Kun]

Oh wow! I mean, WOW!!
Which copies with the original titles staying in life? Did it's from 16mm prints? Because the re-issued versions from VHS and DVD's often bored me when the original titles like nickramer mentionned is attractive and much alive! :tomcat::jerry:

Why Disney don't investate to found the original titles from this company instead to just tried to enhance you with their Digital remasterisations like from the Warner's Golden Collection? I think after founding this lost titles, peoples will take this cartoons more seriously.

[Brandon Panther]

That "Cat's Away" title is ugly.

[gabriel_katikos]

I'm kinda surprised that the original release of The Zoot Cat began with the MGM studio logo used on their Technicolor movies, as all other MGM cartoons released in 1944 were using the red/yellow sunburst logo. Also, the Tom and Jerry intro card on that cartoon is the same one that was used on Mouse Trouble (which, I believe, used the red/yellow sunburst logo at the beginning).

And that original title card for The Zoot Cat looks very similar to the one on the reissue, but with the background consisting of red and green stripes, like Thad said. It looks much more fancier than the solid green background of the reissue! :D

[Tom Stathes]

That "Cat's Away" title is ugly.
Actually, I think it's attractively tacky. Don't mind my soft spot for reissues! :p
And ALL HAIL DAVID GERSTEIN!

[CueBallCat79]

Every time I see a long-lost T&J title card I die a little inside. It sucks so hard that so much has been lost.

[WoodpeckerWoody]

If you gus think about it Fiddling Around tells you more about the plot of the short than Just Mickey do so it would be no brainer to think that was the title of the short, I corrected in my private Disney list :D As the days pass the dvd sets out there seems have lots of flawns in them usually wenn it comes to titles. :(

[David Gerstein]

The error on FIDDLING AROUND/JUST MICKEY was understandable. In the 1960s, Disney possessed a nitrate workprint titled JUST MICKEY (viewed by Mark Kausler at that time, though it doesn't seem to survive today), and that title is on many production materials too.
It was evidently changed very late in the game, perhaps right before release.

That said, I like FIDDLING AROUND as a title much more, myself.

[WoodpeckerWoody]

How many re-issues did MGM made?

But Gerstain I agree with you on Fiddling Around. That title name sounds perfect for this particular short, as I said before.

[nickramer]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure "Just Mickey" was just working title.

[J. A. Boschen]

Very interesting finds David!
The one that surprised me the most was the Zoot Cat title (I expected to see a Leo the Lion logo similar to the one on Blitz Wolf, and Screwball squirrel as opposed to the standard Technicolor logo featured on live action MGM films).
Also the Toby the Pup titles were a little different than I expected; I was expecting one very similar to the Columbia Krazy Kat titles of the same era. Nice to see all of those, Thank you! :)

[Thad]

Very interesting finds David!
The one that surprised me the most was the Zoot Cat title (I expected to see a Leo the Lion logo similar to the one on Blitz Wolf, and Screwball squirrel as opposed to the standard Technicolor logo featured on live action MGM films).

I saw the actual print. That was just a replacement MGM logo on that particular nitrate print.

[David Gerstein]

Whoa—good call, Thad. I'd forgotten that (and I'm removing the relevant still before it misleads anyone else).

[Tom Stathes]

(and I'm removing the relevant still before it misleads anyone else).
Gimme a D....gimme an A....gimme a V.... :D

[David Gerstein]

Gimme a D....gimme an A....gimme a V.... :DStop that dancing up there—you silly!

[Ray Pointer]

Gimme a D....gimme an A....gimme a V.... :D

Do you think David actually gives a "D"? "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a"....Whoops wrong channel!:p

[Vdubdavid]

Every time I see a long-lost T&J title card I die a little inside. It sucks so hard that so much has been lost.

Die? On the contrary, a bit of you ought to come back to life at the fact that some prescient individual kept these titles intact to be rediscovered!

(breaks into song) You gotta have heart.... miles n' miles n' miles of heart....

[J. A. Boschen]

I saw the actual print. That was just a replacement MGM logo on that particular nitrate print.

Interesting. Thanks for the info!

[gabriel_katikos]

Another awesome post, David! :D

I've got two questions for you, though:

1. Do you know what the original end titles for Fraidy Cat and The Zoot Cat look like?

2. On the original prints of The Moose Hunt and Fiddling Around that you saw, did they have the Columbia Pictures torch lady at the beginning?

[David Gerstein]

1. FRAIDY CAT's end titles match those on this version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foc9slgJxqY) of THE MIDNIGHT SNACK. And THE ZOOT CAT's end titles match Thad's version (http://thadkomorowski.com/2009/06/29/mouse-trouble/) of MOUSE TROUBLE.

2. THE MOOSE HUNT and FIDDLING didn't have the Columbia torch lady at the start, but I'm not sure at this point whether she'd been eliminated (both prints started with jumpcuts into their title sequences).

[WoodpeckerWoody]

Do somebody have complete list of MGM cartoons that were re-issued?

[Thad]

The Torch Lady was not used until 1936 anyway.

[Barb Herholzer]

The Torch Lady was not used until 1936 anyway.
She appeared at least as early as 1934 in front of The Three Stooges' WOMEN HATERS.

[Barb Herholzer]

More on the Torch Lady logo (this is from Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt):


Columbia's logo, a lady carrying a torch and draped in the American flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States) (representing Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_%28name%29), a personification of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)), has gone through five major revisions.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-reelclassicslogo-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-logogallery-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-hlaf-12)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-clgwiki-13)
The logo originally appeared in 1924. This version had no clouds, and had rays emanating from the torch in a flickering style of animation. The "Torch Lady" wore a headdress, and above her were the words "A Columbia Production" written in an arch.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-reelclassicslogo-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-logogallery-11)
In 1936, the logo was changed: the "Torch Lady" now stood on a pedestal, wore no headdress, and the single word "Columbia" appeared in chiseled letters behind her. The animation was improved so that the torch now radiated light instead of the more artificial-looking rays of light projecting from the torch. There were several variations to the logo over the years—significantly, a color version was done in 1943 for The Desperadoes,[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-hlaf-12) and the flag became just a drape with no markings—but it remained substantially the same for 40 years.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-reelclassicslogo-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-logogallery-11) 1976's Taxi Driver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_Driver) was one of the last films to use the "Torch Lady" in her classic appearance.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-clgwiki-13)
In 1976,[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-reelclassicslogo-10) Columbia experimented with a new logo. Visual effects pioneer Robert Abel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Abel) was hired by the studio for this logo's animation.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-14) It began with the familiar lady with a torch. Then, the camera zoomed in on the torch, and the torch-light rays then formed an abstract blue semicircle depicting the top half of the rays of light, with the name of the studio appearing under it. This logo was first used on The Who's Tommy and then used on a regular basis starting with Murder by Death. The television counterpart used only the latter part of the logo, and the semicircle was orange (it sometimes looks red, due to variations in the laboratory development process, but according to Columbia Pictures Entertainment's official logo color coding for their various divisions, it was meant to be orange[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]).
The Torch Lady returned in 1981, replacing this "sunburst" logo. The words "Columbia Pictures" now straddled the Torch Lady, who was less detailed in appearance. The shape of the lady's body was described as resembling a bottle of Coca-Cola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola) (which owned Columbia at the time).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-reelclassicslogo-10)
The current logo was created in 1993, when the logo was repainted digitally by New Orleans artist, Michael Deas (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Deas&action=edit&redlink=1),[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-15) who was commissioned to return the lady to her "classic" look. There was a CinemaScope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CinemaScope) version and a 1.85:1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1.85:1) in 1993. [17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-16)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-clgwiki-13) The animation starts with a bright light, which zooms out to reveal the torch and then the lady. Deas used Jenny Joseph, a homemaker and mother of two children, as a model,[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Pictures#cite_note-ebert-17) but used a composite for the face.

[Thad]

Dammit, fudged up the year of the Stooge, so of course it's wrong. Don't drink and post, kids.

[gabriel_katikos]

1. FRAIDY CAT's end titles match those on this version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foc9slgJxqY) of THE MIDNIGHT SNACK. And THE ZOOT CAT's end titles match Thad's version (http://thadkomorowski.com/2009/06/29/mouse-trouble/) of MOUSE TROUBLE.

I believe the original end titles for both Fraidy Cat and The Midnight Snack would have the words "The End" in yellow, not white. I know this, because I've seen a few 1941 MGM cartoons on YouTube, such as The Goose Goes South and Officer Pooch, and the end titles for those cartoons had the words "The End" in yellow (probably to enhance the color quality).

And I don't know if this is true or not, but I believe Dog Trouble was the first MGM cartoon to have the "An MGM Cartoon" card with the red spotlight background (which can be seen on Little Gravel Voice and Bats in the Belfry, as well as the original releases of Puss n' Toots and The Bowling Alley Cat).

BTW, about that Tom and Jerry intro card you posted for The Zoot Cat... does it really come from that cartoon? Because it looks more like it came from Mouse Trouble... :confused:

[Tom Stathes]

BTW, about that Tom and Jerry intro card you posted for The Zoot Cat... does it really come from that cartoon? Because it looks more like it came from Mouse Trouble... :confused:
Very good point, Gabriel. Well, David?

[David Gerstein]

I believe the original end titles for both Fraidy Cat and The Midnight Snack would have the words "The End" in yellow, not white. I know this, because I've seen a few 1941 MGM cartoons on YouTubeHere, decide for yourself. I didn't have a chance to get high quality screengrabs—so I didn't put them up on my blog. But here are low quality, unfortunately contrasty versions of THE MIDNIGHT SNACK...

http://www.cartoonresearch.com/gerstein/midnightend.jpg

...and FRAIDY CAT:

http://www.cartoonresearch.com/gerstein/fraidyend.jpg

In retrospect, they don't look pure white—but yellow really shows on these Tech prints (even under high-contrast conditions), and these seem less yellow than your YouTube examples. So make of them what you will.BTW, about that Tom and Jerry intro card you posted for The Zoot Cat... does it really come from that cartoon? Because it looks more like it came from Mouse Trouble...Actually it's the other way around. Thanks to a goof on my part (damn iPhoto images ID'ed only by number!), the intro card I posted for Mouse Trouble actually came from Zoot Cat!
What Thad said about drinking and posting... here's the actual Mouse Trouble:

http://cartoonresearch.com/gerstein/mousetroublesmall.gif

This has now replaced the Zoot Cat version on my older blogpost (http://ramapithblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/tho-mas-come-up-and-see-some-rarities.html)—sure, they may be identical in design, but the prints are different.

[Matthew Hunter]

Dammit, fudged up the year of the Stooge, so of course it's wrong. Don't drink and post, kids.

"One (hiccup!) fer the money, two...(hiccup!) fer the show, three to get ready, and fooouuuur to go! "

[David Gerstein]

Why do I suddenly hear the thread title, "Dave Gerstein, you've done it again!" being voiced in my head by Jim Backus?
If I make one more mistake around here...

[Tom Stathes]

If I make one more mistake around here...

Yes, off with your head...or maybe just your scalp/ears "hat". :felix:

[gabriel_katikos]

Does Mouse Trouble have the red/yellow sunburst MGM cartoon logo at the beginning?

BTW, I wonder what the "An MGM Tom and Jerry Cartoon" card on the original releases of The Zoot Cat and Mouse Trouble looks like?

Also, I wonder what the original opening and closing titles for The Yankee Doodle Mouse look like? I can tell for sure that the original ending cards of that cartoon read "The End" and "A Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Cartoon".

BTW, when you posted the original titles for Puss n' Toots, how come you didn't post the "An MGM Cartoon" card (which would have included the MPPDA production number)? Or was it not there on the print that you saw?

[David Gerstein]

Does Mouse Trouble have the red/yellow sunburst MGM cartoon logo at the beginning?Yes.BTW, I wonder what the "An MGM Tom and Jerry Cartoon" card on the original releases of The Zoot Cat and Mouse Trouble looks like?Like the later version, but without the "Made In Hollywood" credit. Here's another contrasty, non-blogworthy image:

http://cartoonresearch.com/gerstein/zoot-end.jpgBTW, when you posted the original titles for Puss n' Toots, how come you didn't post the "An MGM Cartoon" card (which would have included the MPPDA production number)? Or was it not there on the print that you saw?It wasn't there on the print I saw.

[FlapperPrower]

I wonder if some of the other original title cards of the 1930-1932 era Mickey shorts had different font on the chalkboard like Fiddling Around.

[R.J. Smith]

David, YOU are a hero to animation researchers and fanatics everywhere! Keep up the posts and updates!

You might just find something collecting dust for decades.

P.S. These could go on a restoration program. You can also make videos of the openng and end titles you collected.

[David Gerstein]

Thanks so much. I'm proud of my research, but if I'm a hero, then so are my colleagues.

So are Cole and Mark Johnson, whose research into 1910s and 1920s trade papers led to the authoritative dating of Felix the Cat's first starring role (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbX-BeSY_18) (November 9, 1919) and the discovery of unique 1920s promotional art (http://felix.goldenagecartoons.com/circ1.gif) that has since traveled everywhere (http://www.darkhorse.com/Products/10-009/Classic-Comic-Characters-18-Felix-The-Cat-Statue). Cole was also the first to locate Disney's GOLDIE LOCKS AND THE THREE BEARS (1922).

So are Mark Kausler (http://www.itsthecat.com/blog/) and Jerry Beck (http://cartoonbrew.com/), whose sound animation print finds are likely the sole reason dozens of Lantz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSZC2G_BrZE), Terry, and Columbia (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7v9q7_krazy-kat-alaskan-knights_shortfilms) rarities have ever been available for study. In addition, Mark's preservation of otherwise junked studio video backups was the pivotal clue that led to five Disney Oswalds' recovery from Universal masters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NELjJFUVtM)—saving us from mud (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh6DzKb8NAk).

So is Pietro Shakarian (http://columbia.goldenagecartoons.com/), my old web collaborator, who in 2005 located a partial print of OZZIE OF THE MOUNTED—a then-unique Disney Oswald short. Pietro's find was used by Disney to help identify another partial print in the Netherlands, leading to the film's nearly full reconstruction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khLUWHHrTGc) for DVD.

So is Thad Komorowski (http://www.thadkomorowski.com), locator of these (http://thadkomorowski.com/2009/06/22/taxidermy-tech-in-tech/) unique Disney titles and this (http://thadkomorowski.com/2009/06/15/more-mgm-originals-nomn/) 1945 version of WILD AND WOOLFY, the only print I know with unique material that was replaced for reissue. Thad was also first to suggest the idea of investigating MGM copyright synopses for more of that replaced material, leading to finds (http://thadkomorowski.com/2009/03/21/reward-5000-or-one-pound-of-coffee/) for both of us.

So is Tom Stathes (http://cartoonsonfilm.blogspot.com/), whose silent animation collection includes dozens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3rbMjfmgwg) of unique discoveries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyU0DG4f6PY)—including many irreplaceable cartoon cat shorts. Every time I dig through Tom's Bray rarities, I learn facts I never knew. I'm also a collaborator on Tom's Cartoons On Film DVDs (http://www.cartoonsonfilm.com), a needed project I'm glad to be part of.

So is Zoran Sinobad, whose discovery and preservation of the Paramount Magazine copyright synopses at the Library of Congress made my Felix filmography research possible. Zoran recovered several wayward 1921 synopses in the group from an archive in Germany, where they may have resided since the Third Reich.

And Are Myklebust, Collin Kellogg, George Willeman, Greg Ford, Gunnar Strøm, Nelson Hughes, Ray Pointer... I've only scratched the surface.

("Mush!")

[gabriel_katikos]

On your earlier blog post, I now know that the Tom and Jerry intro card that you posted for The Midnight Snack is actually from Fraidy Cat; like you said, the cards look identical in design, but the prints are different. Also, I'm sure that print of The Midnight Snack has the MGM logo used on their Technicolor movies and the blue "An MGM Cartoon" card like Fraidy Cat does.

Also, four months ago, Thad said that half of an original nitrate of The Yankee Doodle Mouse was located. I wonder if it has the original opening or closing titles on there?

[Tom Stathes]

Also, four months ago, Thad said that half of an original nitrate of The Yankee Doodle Mouse was located. I wonder if it has the original opening or closing titles on there?

*Prying* minds would like to know...spit it out, Dave :cool:

[Thad]

Hey, Gabriel, ease up on the games of "20 Questions." David is only one man and needs time breathe and not think about cartoons.

(And for the record, that nitrate of YANKEE DOODLE MOUSE David located was just the second half of the cartoon, and nothing else. It did have the standard "The End" that cartoons like WHAT'S BUZZIN' BUZZARD had though, to answer your inevitable next question.)

[Tom Stathes]

Thad, isn't your avatar showing a pedophile? Isn't that inappropriate?

[WoodpeckerWoody]

Here is list of re-issued Tom and Jerry's according to the great Wikipedia. It could be wrong though. As we all know how usefull Wikipedia is.


1941
The Midnight Snack (002)

1942
Fraidy Cat (004) · Dog Trouble (005) · Puss n' Toots (006) · The Bowling Alley Cat (007) · Fine Feathered Friend (008)

1943 Sufferin' Cats! (009) · The Lonesome Mouse (010) · The Yankee Doodle Mouse (011) · Baby Puss (012)

1944 The Zoot Cat (013) · The Million Dollar Cat (014) · The Bodyguard (015) · Puttin' on the Dog (016) · Mouse Trouble (017)

1945 The Mouse Comes to Dinner (018) · Mouse in Manhattan (019) · Tee for Two (020) · Flirty Birdy (021) · Quiet Please! (022)

1946 Springtime for Thomas (023) · The Milky Waif (024) · Trap Happy (025) · Solid Serenade (026)

1947 Cat Fishin' (027) · Part Time Pal (028) · The Cat Concerto (029) · Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Mouse (030) · Salt Water Tabby (031) · A Mouse in the House (032) · The Invisible Mouse (033)

1948 Kitty Foiled (034) · The Truce Hurts (035) · Old Rockin' Chair Tom (036) · Professor Tom (037) · Mouse Cleaning (038)

1949 Polka-Dot Puss (039) · The Little Orphan (040) Heavenly Puss (042) · The Cat and the Mermouse (043) Tennis Chumps (046)

1950 Little Quacker (047) · Saturday Evening Puss (048) · Texas Tom (049) · Jerry and the Lion (050) · Safety Second (051) · Tom and Jerry in the Hollywood Bowl (052) · The Framed Cat (053) · Cue Ball Cat (054)

1951 Casanova Cat (055) · Jerry and the Goldfish (056) · Jerry's Cousin (057) · Sleepy-Time Tom (058) · His Mouse Friday (059)

1953 Johann Mouse (075)

[gabriel_katikos]

(And for the record, that nitrate of YANKEE DOODLE MOUSE David located was just the second half of the cartoon, and nothing else. It did have the standard "The End" that cartoons like WHAT'S BUZZIN' BUZZARD had though, to answer your inevitable next question.)

I'm sure the first half of that nitrate will be discovered one of these days (so we can see what the original opening titles for that cartoon look like)... :rolleyes:

Also, that would mean The Yankee Doodle Mouse, along with Sufferin' Cats and The Lonesome Mouse, were the only T&J cartoons to have the blue "The End" and "A Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Cartoon" cards with the MGM pseudo logo below (which were first used on Barney Bear's Victory Garden), as you said that Baby Puss was the first cartoon to have the "An MGM Tom and Jerry Cartoon" card.

[J. A. Boschen]

Here is list of re-issued Tom and Jerry's according to the great Wikipedia. It could be wrong though. As we all know how usefull Wikipedia is.

I may be wrong but I am under the impression that all of the early 1940's Tom and Jerry cartoons, with the exception of "Night Before Christmas" and "Puss Gets the Boot", were re-issued to theaters.

[WoodpeckerWoody]

I may be wrong but I am under the impression that all of the early 1940's Tom and Jerry cartoons, with the exception of "Night Before Christmas" and "Puss Gets the Boot", were re-issued to theaters.

That is way I posted Great Wikipedia, as i'm under the impression that the list is wrong.


Really I think that MGM reissues were constant of Tom and Jerry and Tex Avery's shorts only or the majority of the re-issues atlest, I don't think that we will find many re-issues with None-Tom and Jerry and None Tex Avery MGM shorts.

If somebody have complete re-issue information of MGM cartoon I would be grateful if that person would post the list.

[gabriel_katikos]

Hey, Gabriel, ease up on the games of "20 Questions." David is only one man and needs time breathe and not think about cartoons.

I wasn't really trying to play "20 Questions" with David; I was just telling him that the Tom and Jerry intro card he posted for The Midnight Snack actually came from Fraidy Cat; like he said, the cards are identical in design, but the prints are different.

BTW, Thad, I wonder what the first Tom and Jerry cartoon to have the "Made in Hollywood, U.S.A." credit on the "An MGM Tom and Jerry Cartoon" card was? I'm guessing it might have been either Safety Second or Tom and Jerry in the Hollywood Bowl.

And on Baby Puss, I wonder if the "An MGM Tom and Jerry Cartoon" card had the pseudo MGM logo reading "A Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Picture"? Since the original poster for that cartoon has the words "A Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Picture" on it, it's possible that Baby Puss might have been the only T&J cartoon to have the pseudo MGM logo on that card.

[WoodpeckerWoody]

The mock up of The Midnight Snack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foc9slgJxqY&feature=related

[Studio Toledo]

The mock up of The Midnight Snack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foc9slgJxqY&feature=related
Now that's how they could do it.

[gabriel_katikos]

A pencil sketch of the original 1951 title card of Jerry and the Goldfish:

http://www.tomandjerryonline.com/images/mgmtt08.jpg

[WoodpeckerWoody]

It is acually wery similar to what we are acually seeing.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Jerry_and_the_Goldfish_title.jpg

[J Lee]

It is acually wery similar to what we are acually seeing.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Jerry_and_the_Goldfish_title.jpg

It's a re-release title card. You can tell by the mid-50s neo-UPA style lettering on the Hanna-Barbera credit (which other re-released cartoons of the period also got). So the original may have looked exactly like the layout drawing.

[Ray Pointer]

Compare the Goldfish in the layout to the title card. The proportions don't quite match.

[gabriel_katikos]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but on most of the late 40's-early 50's T&J cartoons that were reissued in the late 1950s with the Perspecta Sound logo, animator Irven Spence is erroneously credited as "Irvin Spence" for some reason. This happened to the following cartoons:

Polka-Dot Puss (1948) (this one still retained a Western Electric logo when it was reissued)
Heavenly Puss (1948)
The Cat and the Mermouse (1949)
Tennis Chumps (1949)
Saturday Evening Puss (1950)
Texas Tom (1950)
Jerry and the Lion (1950)
Safety Second (1950)
Cue Ball Cat (1950)
Casanova Cat (1950)
Jerry and the Goldfish (1951)
Jerry's Cousin (1951)
Sleepy-Time Tom (1951)
His Mouse Friday (1951)

I'm 99% sure that the original releases of these cartoons credited him correctly as "Irven Spence". Although, Little Quacker, Tom and Jerry in the Hollywood Bowl, and The Framed Cat still credit him as "Irven Spence", even on the reissues.

Also, I found what appears to be the original 1946 title card of Trap Happy (which, I believe, was the first T&J cartoon to have Fred Quimby credited):

http://forums.goldenagecartoons.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3182&stc=1&d=1260047791

I don't know if this really is the original title card, though, because it looks more like the reissue title card seen today, with the only differences being that the background is a lighter shade of green, and the "Trap Happy" title is in white instead of magenta.

[WoodpeckerWoody]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but on most of the late 40's-early 50's T&J cartoons that were reissued in the late 1950s with the Perspecta Sound logo, animator Irven Spence is erroneously credited as "Irvin Spence" for some reason. This happened to the following cartoons:

Polka-Dot Puss (1948) (this one still retained a Western Electric logo when it was reissued)
Heavenly Puss (1948)
The Cat and the Mermouse (1949)
Tennis Chumps (1949)
Saturday Evening Puss (1950)
Texas Tom (1950)
Jerry and the Lion (1950)
Safety Second (1950)
Cue Ball Cat (1950)
Casanova Cat (1950)
Jerry and the Goldfish (1951)
Jerry's Cousin (1951)
Sleepy-Time Tom (1951)
His Mouse Friday (1951)

I'm 99% sure that the original releases of these cartoons credited him correctly as "Irven Spence". Although, Little Quacker, Tom and Jerry in the Hollywood Bowl, and The Framed Cat still credit him as "Irven Spence", even on the reissues.

Also, I found what appears to be the original 1946 title card of Trap Happy (which, I believe, was the first T&J cartoon to have Fred Quimby credited):

http://forums.goldenagecartoons.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3182&stc=1&d=1260047791

I don't know if this really is the original title card, though, because it looks more like the reissue title card seen today, with the only differences being that the background is a lighter shade of green, and the "Trap Happy" title is in white instead of magenta.

link doesn't work, I don't see anything try to re uppload the picture

[gabriel_katikos]

link doesn't work, I don't see anything try to re uppload the picture

Here it is again:

[gabriel_katikos]

Also, while I'm at it, Thad said in another thread that he has Soup's On and Pluto's Sweater on film with the original RKO titles, and he has also seen The Band Concert with the original UA titles, neither of which appear on the Walt Disney Treasures DVD sets. Do you think you could post pictures of the original titles for those cartoons, Thad?

[WoodpeckerWoody]

Too be fair Disney did awful job on original titles on WDT sets. But I think it is worth of another thread what is original there and what isn't. And according to my calculation majority seems to be not original.

[gabriel_katikos]

Hey, David, will there be more original titles coming soon?