Official Max Fleischer's Superman (1941-42) DVD Talkback Thread

[Jon Cooke]

Welcome to the official GAC talkback thread for Max Fleischer's Superman (1941-42) DVD set which will be released on Tuesday, April 7, 2009. All discussion and talkback relating to this DVD set may be posted here. (Please note - previous discussion threads about this set have been closed, please use this thread instead).

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[Jon Cooke]

For an amusing read, be sure to check out the one-star review (and its replies) on Amazon by "Dr. Thomas R. Reich", who apparently is the fellow behind "restoring" the cartoons for the Cartoon Crazys/Goodtimes DVD releases. :rolleyes:

[Ray Pointer]

I've said it before, and here I go again. Why can't these people count or read? There were only nine of the SUPERMAN cartoons produced under Fleischer. The remaining eight were under Famous Studios as any child of age six who can surely READ by this point will clearly see. This is yet another dsitortion of facts and history accompanied by the incompetency of the people who are given access to this material over going to those who really know the subject. Such qualified people are really not unknown in certain circles.

[Bugsy-Kun]

I've said it before, and here I go again. Why can't these people count or read? There were only nine of the SUPERMAN cartoons produced under Fleischer. The remaining eight were under Famous Studios as any child of age six who can surely READ by this point will clearly see. This is yet another dsitortion of facts and history accompanied by the incompetency of the people who are given access to this material over going to those who really know the subject. Such qualified people are really not unknown in certain circles.

But Max Fleischer was the producer of the eight Superman Famous' cartoons. That's probably why they named Max Fleischer's Superman for this collection.

[Geezil]

Unfortunately, the record shows (forget the Big Cartoon Data Base for complete accuracy in this case, by the way) that there was no involvement by Max, Dave, or any other Fleischer in Famous Studios' final eight Superman shorts. (Inspiration and any lingering indirect influence aside, of course.)

Plus, their (that is, Famous') release schedule continued into 1943, no matter what the package says.

[Bugsy-Kun]

Unfortunately, the record shows (forget the Big Cartoon Data Base for complete accuracy in this case, by the way) that there was no involvement by Max, Dave, or any other Fleischer in Famous Studios' final eight Superman shorts. (Inspiration and any lingering indirect influence aside, of course.)

Plus, their (that is, Famous') release schedule continued into 1943, no matter what the package says.

Thanks for this infos Geezil. I find unfortunately the credits to the BCDB website, but that's reminds so much how Wikipedia makes lots of mistakes in history. :(

They should bring back to the old times. Studying history and then, watching cartoons.

[FleischerFan]

The obvious reason has nothing to do with historical ignorance and everything to do with marketing.

The name "Famous Studios" has absolutely zero commercial potential.

While Max Fleischer's name is not anywhere near as potent as Walt Disney's, he is still a better marketing draw than the Famous name.

Besides, this batch of cartoons has been known as "Max Fleischer's Superman cartoons" for as long as I've been a part of classic cartoon fandom (since the 1970's). While the label is somewhat inaccurate, most of us know the real facts. And the general public really could not care less.

After all, if we really want to be sour-pussed sticklers about this, why don't we complain about the "Looney Tunes Golden Collections?" After all, all of them contain "Merrie Melodies," too - don't they? :tweety:

[Bradskey]

After all, if we really want to be sour-pussed sticklers about this, why don't we complain about the "Looney Tunes Golden Collections?" After all, all of them contain "Merrie Melodies," too - don't they? :tweety:

Wow I've NEVER thought about that. How did Looney Tunes get to be THE name? Sorry, guess I'm off topic.

[Leviathan]

It really makes no difference as long as the cartoons themselves aren't altered.

Speaking of which, has anyone inspected the set to see which prints Warner used.

[J Lee]

Well, as far as the look, pacing, voices, sounds and special effects, they all were created while Max was still in charge. So by those standards, you could say the Famous shorts were still working within the same framework set up while the Fleischers were in charge (sort of in the same way the other Warners directors worked within the framework of Bugs Bunny that Tex Avery established, and in contrast to, say, the Chuck Jones Tom & Jerry shorts, which bear very little resemblence to the series as handled when Hanna and Barbera were directing the characters).

[Steve Siegert]

Don't quote me on this, but I heard somewhere that these are the same versions released with the Superman movies. In other words, Warner did nothing new to the films to correct the issues that many people on this forum have complained about. After all, WHV's planned DVD releases for classic animation this year have mostly been films that already had restoration work, or needed very little of it. Consider this Superman set an economy release. Warner is attempting to make money on a product that will not cost too much to produce.

Unless anyone has actually seen these DVD's and is able to comment, it looks like we will have to wait until Tuesday to know for sure whether what I have stated is true or not. As for me, I plan on purchasing this set regardless of what people say about previous restorations. I have been waiting for an official release from WHV for years.

[MarkTheShark]

Don't quote me on this, but I heard somewhere that these are the same versions released with the Superman movies. In other words, Warner did nothing new to the films to correct the issues that many people on this forum have complained about. After all, WHV's planned DVD releases for classic animation this year have mostly been films that already had restoration work, or needed very little of it. Consider this Superman set an economy release. Warner is attempting to make money on a product that will not cost too much to produce.

Unless anyone has actually seen these DVD's and is able to comment, it looks like we will have to wait until Tuesday to know for sure whether what I have stated is true or not. As for me, I plan on purchasing this set regardless of what people say about previous restorations. I have been waiting for an official release from WHV for years.

I have not seen the new collection -- but I read somewhere on line that WB later came out with a "megaset" of all the Superman movies, which also included the cartoons, and they were supposedly "corrected" there. Can anyone confirm this? If that's the case -- then it would stand to reason that those versions would be used here.

But it also seems I remember a megaset coming out first, then being withdrawn, then another megaset being released. I haven't followed it -- I bought the first 2 deluxe editions of the Superman movies, mostly just to get the cartoons.

So in casual conversation, when people say "Max Fleischer's Superman cartoons," are they really just referring to the first eight? I don't know, I think maybe it's more like "Kleenex" or "Coke" where someone could just as well mean "Puffs" or "Pepsi." But then, it still bugs me when people refer to "this show was filmed..." when they really mean "this show was taped..."

[nickramer]

Well, they couldn't say Paramount's. That's still a seperate studio.

[Jon Cooke]

Well, they couldn't say Paramount's. That's still a seperate studio.

Hmm, maybe they could have called it Superman - The Complete Classic Theatrical Animation Collection? Oh well, it's just a minor nitpick. Having the Famous ones on this set isn't really any different than how they also included the Dick Lundy and Mike Lah Droopys on the Tex Avery's Droopy DVD collection.

I am hoping we'll get a review copy from WB, stay tuned!

[Ray Pointer]

But Max Fleischer was the producer of the eight Superman Famous' cartoons. That's probably why they named Max Fleischer's Superman for this collection.

Incorrect. Max was ousted effective May, 1942. With his contract severed, his name does not appear on any of the cartoons from JAPATEURS on, which represents the official transition to the control of production under Famous.

While there is a romantic desire to want to connect Max with the entire series because of their tremendous popularity, the fact is that he was largely inactive in these towards the end due to the complicated issues that lead to his loosing control of the studio as I have accounted for many times here and also on STU'S SHOW on Shokus Internet Radio.

[Ray Pointer]

The obvious reason has nothing to do with historical ignorance and everything to do with marketing.

The name "Famous Studios" has absolutely zero commercial potential.

While Max Fleischer's name is not anywhere near as potent as Walt Disney's, he is still a better marketing draw than the Famous name.

Besides, this batch of cartoons has been known as "Max Fleischer's Superman cartoons" for as long as I've been a part of classic cartoon fandom (since the 1970's). While the label is somewhat inaccurate, most of us know the real facts. And the general public really could not care less. After all, if we really want to be sour-pussed sticklers about this, why don't we complain about the "Looney Tunes Golden Collections?" After all, all of them contain "Merrie Melodies," too - don't they? :tweety:

Actually, it is the SUPERMAN name that is the marketing tool above the name of Max Fleischer. This was one of the other issues that added to Max's obscurity. Aside from being lost in the shadow of Walt Disney, Max was also lost in the shadow of BETTY BOOP, POPEYE, and SUPERMAN. Aside from our collective knowledge of Max, if you mention Max's name to the average person, they don't know him. But when you mention BETTY BOOP, POPEYE, and SUPERMAN, they make the connection. The unfortunate thing is that the impressions of the creations overpowered the force behind them.

[Ray Pointer]

Well, as far as the look, pacing, voices, sounds and special effects, they all were created while Max was still in charge. So by those standards, you could say the Famous shorts were still working within the same framework set up while the Fleischers were in charge (sort of in the same way the other Warners directors worked within the framework of Bugs Bunny that Tex Avery established, and in contrast to, say, the Chuck Jones Tom & Jerry shorts, which bear very little resemblence to the series as handled when Hanna and Barbera were directing the characters).

What you mean to say is that the series was continue based on the foundation established under Fleischer. This is not an entirely correct assumption. Since Paramount bought the property, they were influencing the series, and started to take more control of it, largely responsible for the format that followed the first three. Max was really not that much in charge, especially since Dave had pushed him out of the picture in terms of making contributions to the content.

[Lee Glover]

I received the DVD today, and had a quick glance at the contents. Although I don't have the Superman Movie DVDs to make any comparisons, to me these are the same botched-up versions they used on the previous sets. No commentaries, just two featurettes and a "sneak-peak" at the new Green Lantern animated movie. The picture quality on the cartoons are only marginally better than the ones on the Image discs, but there doesn't seem to be any serious clean-up work done on them.

Looks like WB missed a great opportunity on this one. :(

[jonmayo15]

I received the DVD today, and had a quick glance at the contents. Although I don't have the Superman Movie DVDs to make any comparisons, to me these are the same botched-up versions they used on the previous sets.Damn. Oh well...

[Steve Siegert]

I received the DVD today, and had a quick glance at the contents. Although I don't have the Superman Movie DVDs to make any comparisons, to me these are the same botched-up versions they used on the previous sets. No commentaries, just two featurettes and a "sneak-peak" at the new Green Lantern animated movie. The picture quality on the cartoons are only marginally better than the ones on the Image discs, but there doesn't seem to be any serious clean-up work done on them.

Looks like WB missed a great opportunity on this one. :(

Does that really surprise anyone anymore? How many films originally produced by other studios has Warner actually given the attention and care that they give to the films that were actually produced by them? Think about it, all 3 volumes of Tom and Jerry Spotlight Collection, Popeye Vol. 2 and now this set.

Unless I am mistaken, the issues with the versions Warner used don't take anything away from the actual story taking place in each cartoon, but are just honest (but nonetheless careless) errors with the intro to most of these cartoons. It could be possible that the original source material could be lost??? I know it is disappointing, but I am one to be thankful that these are available on an official stand-alone release. I have held off of buying the Ultimate Edition in hopes of getting a set of just these cartoons. And let's not forget the picture quality is the best we can hope for, a significant upgrade from the Digiview DVDs I have.

[Duck Dodgers]

I received the DVD today, and had a quick glance at the contents. Although I don't have the Superman Movie DVDs to make any comparisons, to me these are the same botched-up versions they used on the previous sets. No commentaries, just two featurettes and a "sneak-peak" at the new Green Lantern animated movie. The picture quality on the cartoons are only marginally better than the ones on the Image discs, but there doesn't seem to be any serious clean-up work done on them.

Looks like WB missed a great opportunity on this one. :(

Weren't all the troubles with the shorts corrected for the Ultimate Superman set?

[Vdubdavid]

I received the DVD today, and had a quick glance at the contents. Although I don't have the Superman Movie DVDs to make any comparisons, to me these are the same botched-up versions they used on the previous sets. No commentaries, just two featurettes and a "sneak-peak" at the new Green Lantern animated movie. The picture quality on the cartoons are only marginally better than the ones on the Image discs, but there doesn't seem to be any serious clean-up work done on them.

Looks like WB missed a great opportunity on this one. :(

I've got only two questions:
1. Did they fix the audio glitches on some of the shorts (does the narrator say "truthjustice" or "truth and justice" at the opening)
2. Is the Krypton prologue from the first short shoehorned onto the rest?

[Lee Glover]

I've got only two questions:
1. Did they fix the audio glitches on some of the shorts (does the narrator say "truthjustice" or "truth and justice" at the opening)
2. Is the Krypton prologue from the first short shoehorned onto the rest?

Only two cartoons has the shoehorned prologue, "Eleventh Hour" and "Jungle Drums". The latter short and the first Superman cartoon still have the narrator saying "truthjustice".

[Lee Glover]

Does that really surprise anyone anymore? How many films originally produced by other studios has Warner actually given the attention and care that they give to the films that were actually produced by them? Think about it, all 3 volumes of Tom and Jerry Spotlight Collection, Popeye Vol. 2 and now this set.

Unless I am mistaken, the issues with the versions Warner used don't take anything away from the actual story taking place in each cartoon, but are just honest (but nonetheless careless) errors with the intro to most of these cartoons. It could be possible that the original source material could be lost??? I know it is disappointing, but I am one to be thankful that these are available on an official stand-alone release. I have held off of buying the Ultimate Edition in hopes of getting a set of just these cartoons. And let's not forget the picture quality is the best we can hope for, a significant upgrade from the Digiview DVDs I have.

I would be really angry if they did alter the main body of these cartoons, but I'm more bewildered as to why they would alter the intros. None of the Famous Studios shorts have the correct opening music, with one example being that "Japoteurs" has its theme music taken from "Electric Earthquake" (I can tell by the additional sound effect). :confused:

The ones on the Image discs have the correct opening/closing titles on most, if not all, of them.

[Ray Pointer]

I would be really angry if they did alter the main body of these cartoons, but I'm more bewildered as to why they would alter the intros. None of the Famous Studios shorts have the correct opening music, with one example being that "Japoteurs" has its theme music taken from "Electric Eathquake" (I can tell by the additional sound effect). :confused: The ones on the Image discs have the correct opening/closing titles on most, if not all, of them.

It's not really the sound effect that identifies the correct opening on JAPOTEURS so much, it's Sammy Timberg's corny saxaphones.

[Bugsy-Kun]

Incorrect. Max was ousted effective May, 1942. With his contract severed, his name does not appear on any of the cartoons from JAPATEURS on, which represents the official transition to the control of production under Famous.

While there is a romantic desire to want to connect Max with the entire series because of their tremendous popularity, the fact is that he was largely inactive in these towards the end due to the complicated issues that lead to his loosing control of the studio as I have accounted for many times here and also on STU'S SHOW on Shokus Internet Radio.

Ah now i understand.
But it's still a shame that webmasters pretend that Max Fleischer was the producer of the Famous cartoons when he was inactive after his contract.

[Bradskey]

I generally support most of what WB cares to release, but it sounds like the Image disc, which I have, is still more correct than this "official" release. I was pretty underwhelmed by the announcement of this to begin with, don't see any compelling reason for me to purchase it. I'm content with the quality of the Image release.

[Ray Pointer]

Ah now i understand.
But it's still a shame that webmasters pretend that Max Fleischer was the producer of the Famous cartoons when he was inactive after his contract.


With all due respect to those people, they are not the real subject matter experts.

[FleischerFan]

Unless I am mistaken, the issues with the versions Warner used don't take anything away from the actual story taking place in each cartoon, but are just honest (but nonetheless careless) errors with the intro to most of these cartoons. It could be possible that the original source material could be lost??? I know it is disappointing, but I am one to be thankful that these are available on an official stand-alone release. Yet, copies of the cartoons without these glitches exist - and have appeared on many PD tapes & DVDs through the years. It's not like Warners couldn't have corrected these problems if they really cared.

I don't have much to go on, but based on the two W-B "restored" cartoons I have seen (on the Academy Award & Popeye sets), I notice no big visual improvement over the Digiview prints. And considering the W-B sets introduce new imperfections and charge a premium price, I think I'll pass.

[MarkTheShark]

I generally support most of what WB cares to release, but it sounds like the Image disc, which I have, is still more correct than this "official" release. I was pretty underwhelmed by the announcement of this to begin with, don't see any compelling reason for me to purchase it. I'm content with the quality of the Image release.

The Image DVD was indeed pretty good -- probably the best available at that time -- but I cannot content myself with copies of the cartoons with superimposed release dates. And ironically, I assume the reason that was done was to dissuade people from copying the shorts off that set for their own public domain releases -- and it didn't make any difference, there are loads of "dollar DVDs" with the superimposed release dates from the Image/Bosko disc. At least the Image DVD doesn't have the "freeze-frames" on "Terror On The Midway."

[Steve Siegert]

There are some pretty convincing arguments to support the idea of not buying this set. We can still hope for Warner to eventually correct the problems and issue replacements can't we? Even if it may take a couple of years? Then again, the general public probably won't be able to notice these glitches. I do have a few friends who are not animation buffs, but plan on buying this set because they like Superman, and they want an official release of the original cartoons. I have warned them about the glitches, but they told me that they don't care if these are perfect. One of them even criticized people who complain about such things.

How sad is it that this set was at the top of my list, and quite possibly the only set I planned on buying from Warner this year?

[Geezil]

There are some pretty convincing arguments to support the idea of not buying this set. We can still hope for Warner to eventually correct the problems and issue replacements can't we? Even if it may take a couple of years?

Sure we can. But unless/until Warner does so, I for one am sticking with the Image/Bosko set (which remains the top of this particular line, captions be damned).

[Nelson]

Having seen the recently restored version of "The Mechcanical Monsters" on Popeye volume 2, I was very impressed with the restoration of this short and hoping the other titles will be the same on the collection.

[Bradskey]

I think its an okay release for the general public, who are never going to care about the details anyway, bless them. But for those actually interested in animation who have already collected pretty good copies of this material its a real take-it-or-leave-it affair. The release dates on the Image disc don't bother me that much, certainly no worse than substituting the intro from another cartoon altogether. A few of us will buy and others (like me) won't bother.

[Geezil]

Having seen the recently restored version of "The Mechcanical Monsters" on Popeye volume 2, I was very impressed with the restoration of this short and hoping the other titles will be the same on the collection.

Say again, Nelson? Unless my perception is completely off this week (careful there, Thad ;) ), what I saw and heard while watching that same Superman short as presented on Popeye Vol. 2 was the same spliced-in "journey from Krypton" sequence and the "truthjustice" soundtrack glitch to which others have posted their objections here and in previous threads.

I can also see another mass outcry for corrected replacement copies coming once everyone has sampled this new collection.

[MarkTheShark]

So what about what I read somewhere on line (can't remember where) that supposedly, these were corrected on some kind of ultimate megaset with all the movies? Or maybe the person who said that didn't know what they were talking about?

[MarkTheShark]

"truthjustice" -- that sounds like a great user name if it's not taken already.

[Tim Lones]

A number of years ago, I bought the two disc Fleischer/Famous Superman set from Goodtimes DVD, with the titles:

Monsters and Villians (First 9 Cartoons)
Nature and War (Last 8 cartoons)

I havent watched these in a long time, but would anyone know the relative difference in quality between these and the Warner DVD's?

[Jon Cooke]

I think its an okay release for the general public, who are never going to care about the details anyway, bless them.

Yeah, but general public is also probably happy with their $1 PD Superman discs. Are they really going to pay $25 for a set of the same cartoons?

[Bradskey]

Yeah, but general public is also probably happy with their $1 PD Superman discs. Are they really going to pay $25 for a set of the same cartoons?

Good point.

[MarkTheShark]

A number of years ago, I bought the two disc Fleischer/Famous Superman set from Goodtimes DVD, with the titles:

Monsters and Villians (First 9 Cartoons)
Nature and War (Last 8 cartoons)

I havent watched these in a long time, but would anyone know the relative difference in quality between these and the Warner DVD's?

I never bought those so I can't comment on their quality -- but didn't those have added sound effects? Most of the Goodtimes cartoon DVDs did. (I think I have some PD dollar DVD with some of the shorts copied off those DVDs -- at any rate, copied off something -- and there are no studio logos, no closing titles, and added foley sound effects. I would avoid.) As far as existing PD releases go, I thought VCI's was pretty good, maybe not quite equal to the Bosko/Image but at least nothing superimposed.

Aside from the sometimes incorrect reconstruction of the original openings and closings (so what else is new), I would say WB's stuff is going to be better than anything else out there.

[Valeyard]

So what about what I read somewhere on line (can't remember where) that supposedly, these were corrected on some kind of ultimate megaset with all the movies? Or maybe the person who said that didn't know what they were talking about?


The cartoons were never corrected in the Superman recall. The recall was only for Superman 1 (original audio track was not included) and Superman 3 (wrong disc). The Fleischer/Famous shorts were never a part of the recall.

I seriously doubt Warner will do a recall for these. It's not just one cartoon with a botched soundtrack. Essentially, every short has a problem. For them to do a proper recall, they'd have to remaster every one of them from scratch. This title (I'm sorry to say) isn't a major release for them. MAYBE if there was a full-on protest/letter writing campaign but it's doubtful even then.

[Mike in Jersey]

Is seems that somewhere along the line they corrected Mechanical Monsters intro. It has the proper "x-ray vision" intro now. Sadly it looks like this was the only correction made to these cartoons. The rest look like they did on the Superman 1 & 2 deluxe DVD sets.

Mike

[Nelson]

So, umm, is this dvd set worth buying or not?

[ohmahaaha]

So, umm, is this dvd set worth buying or not?
My personal opinion, if they are the same prints used in the "Ultimate Superman" box set and I believe they are from all I've read, then yes this set is definitely worth buying and you will highly enjoy the cartoons.

[jonmayo15]

So, umm, is this dvd set worth buying or not?
If you want Ultra perfect quality with full original openings and 100% accurate audio, no. If you want the best picture quality and bright, vibrant color, get it. I'd say if you are really thinking about buying it, do it! Although I won't be.

[Ray Pointer]

My personal opinion, if they are the same prints used in the "Ultimate Superman" box set and I believe they are from all I've read, then yes this set is definitely worth buying and you will highly enjoy the cartoons.

"Prints"? What's your definintion of "prints"?

[ohmahaaha]

"Prints"? What's your definintion of "prints"?
I think it's pretty plain what I was saying to the guy, but if I need to be plainer, Nelson: this is more than likely a great set that you will highly enjoy.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Has anyone bought this set yet? If so, could you post screen grabs?

[Ray Pointer]

I think it's pretty plain what I was saying to the guy, but if I need to be plainer, Nelson: this is more than likely a great set that you will highly enjoy.

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misuse of the term, "prints." I have explained this many times before. In the case of the SUPERMAN cartoons, the majority, if not all of the versions out there of any decent quality have been dubbed from video sources that were taken from the same telecine transfers from the 1980s. Time-Warner has the film elements and is in the best position to use those film sources, negatives or "prints" since they own the 35mm materials. It would be interesting to find out if the new SUPERMAN set has been transferred without the 3/2 pulldown. The absence of interlaced frames would be evidence of new transfers from these film sources.

[ohmahaaha]

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misuse of the term, "prints." I have explained this many times before.
Again, I think everyone knew what I meant when I said "prints"; I suspect you knew what I meant too. It is besides the point of what I was trying to say to Nelson in my original post; but for his edification, if the source materials used for this DVD set are the same source materials as those used for the Ultimate Superman box set, then I think that the cartoons look pretty damn good and therefore Nelson would enjoy the purchase.

As for "having explained this many times before" - a mantra which you post often - I think you should remember that there may be a lot of people out there new to this and other forums and may not have been here to see your earlier posts. If you don't like repeating yourself ... then don't.

[Ray Pointer]

Again, I think everyone knew what I meant when I said "prints"; I suspect you knew what I meant too. It is besides the point of what I was trying to say to Nelson in my original post; but for his edification, if the source materials used for this DVD set are the same source materials as those used for the Ultimate Superman box set, then I think that the cartoons look pretty damn good and therefore Nelson would enjoy the purchase.

As for "having explained this many times before" - a mantra which you post often - I think you should remember that there may be a lot of people out there new to this and other forums and may not have been here to see your earlier posts. If you don't like repeating yourself ... then don't.

Nelson tends to use terms mistakenly as well. The point is to use correct terminology since much of this discussion is about the correctness of the SUPERMAN cartoon content, which we can agree upon. A snit over this matter is totally unnecessary and was not called for. But since you are aware of my having clarified this matter once before, I'd have expected you to have avoided making this mistake. The fact that there are people new is the very reason why I brought this up again, and I qualified this by making these past references. That said, we should be clear on what we are referring to when we talk about "prints" and dubs from tape and other digital sources, which the majority of this comes from as explained.

[zavkram]

I think I'll just stick with my Bosko Video DVD; I don't care about the superimposed release dates, either... I just mentally tune them out; the same way I ignore the superimposed "Bosko Video" logos on their Private SNAFU set

[jonmayo15]

Here's a review with a few screen caps:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/36901/max-fleischers-superman-1941-1942/

[zavkram]

Here's a review with a few screen caps:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/36901/max-fleischers-superman-1941-1942/

And of course, it would appear that this reviewer also has some of his facts wrong... witness his blanket statement about Max Fleischer having produced all 17 of the cartoons. Ray Pointer has said time and again that this is not so.

Ray, I dearly hope that one day, very soon, you'll be able to make that definitive Fleischer documentary that you've dreamed of; if only to finally put all of this misinformation to rest!

[GarudaBoy!]

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misuse of the term, "prints." I have explained this many times before. In the case of the SUPERMAN cartoons, the majority, if not all of the versions out there of any decent quality have been dubbed from video sources that were taken from the same telecine transfers from the 1980s. Time-Warner has the film elements and is in the best position to use those film sources, negatives or "prints" since they own the 35mm materials. It would be interesting to find out if the new SUPERMAN set has been transferred without the 3/2 pulldown. The absence of interlaced frames would be evidence of new transfers from these film sources.

The transfers on the "Ultimate Superman" boxset - which appear to be the same ones reused here - look and sound like new digital restorations using the same processes used for the Looney Tunes Golden Collection. Compared to other availible video versions, the Warner Bros. versions easily look and sound the best. However, the masters Warner Bros. owns apparently lack the opening and end title sequences, so most of those (except for the first short) are spliced in from other sources. The success/obviousness of this splicing varies from short to short.

The correct end title music, which should be unique to each episode, is also not always used (many of them appear to use spliced audio from the first short).

Also, the transfers were progressive rather than interlaced.

[Steve Siegert]

I went with my original plan and bought the set. I was impressed with the picture quality, but that was about it. I did notice quite a few scratches throughout these films. I guess the source materials Warner used were probably in pretty rough shape. I was a little disappointed that they didn't put much work into fixing the errors with the intros. But at least they fixed "Mechanical Monsters". What I originally heard was that no changes were going to be made to these films and that they were going to be exactly as they were in the Superman movie boxed sets.

[Steve Siegert]

I have now played through just the intro of each cartoon on this set. Then, I played through the intro of each cartoon on the Digiview DVDs, which were sourced from the Bosko set. Unless I need to get my eyes checked, the footage at the beginning of "Terror on the Midway" looks identical on both the Warner and Bosko sets. To make sure, I even checked a third source, a cheap Superman disc I bought for 5 bucks, and the version on there had the still pictures everyone has talked about being common on public domain releases.

[WoodpeckerWoody]

If I understand it correclly the only thing that is wrong with this set is the lack of orginal and the correct sound effects and voices. I expect title cards and closing cards to be correct along with cartoons being uncenored, uncut and in correct aspect rato.

[MarkTheShark]

I have now played through just the intro of each cartoon on this set. Then, I played through the intro of each cartoon on the Digiview DVDs, which were sourced from the Bosko set. Unless I need to get my eyes checked, the footage at the beginning of "Terror on the Midway" looks identical on both the Warner and Bosko sets. To make sure, I even checked a third source, a cheap Superman disc I bought for 5 bucks, and the version on there had the still pictures everyone has talked about being common on public domain releases.

The Image/Bosko DVD (at least the version I have) has the correct footage, but there is a noticeably bad scratch on the film used as a source somewhere down the line (this is why the freeze-frames were used on another version -- possibly an earlier Laserdisc release? -- in the first place) and both ended up being copied by various PD distributors later on.

[TServo2049]

Having seen the restored cartoons, I will say that they are not "marginally" better than the Image/Bosko release. They are quite noticeably better, both image and sound-wise. The Superman cape and logo are actually *red*, not pale orange. Krypton glows *green*, not a slightly greenish gray. And the image is much sharper than any other copies I've ever seen.

All PD releases we've seen originate from a set of 35mm prints (not sure if they were actual IB Tech prints, or what) which Jim Harmon of Comics Buyer's Guide acquired in the late 70s. They were a revelation compared to the crappy 16mm prints circulating, but they weren't restored, weren't remastered, they were PRINTS. And he could only find a 16mm dupe of Terror on the Midway.

Patrick McCart theorizes that these new DVD versions are, in fact, sourced from the original nitrate SENs held by UCLA. However, he noticed something interesting in UCLA's description of these negatives: they had no accompanying soundtracks. They were picture only.

If they had to get audio from other prints, it would explain why the opening and closing music is sometimes wrong. Not justify it, but explain why they would ineptly dub in the wrong music - there's always the danger of not putting people in charge who actually care enough to not simply drop in the soundtrack from the first one they find in the pile.

I specifically remember, from back when these versions debuted on In2TV, that the horrible splice in the Terror on the Midway opening is gone, and it doesn't seem like a fake video transition. Furthermore, the complete establishing pan was intact - the release which had the freeze frames was, IIRC, the awful re-sountracked WinStar release.

Also, the "lower quality" footage - I read somewhere that some scenes look out of focus because some animation/camera errors were discovered during post-production, and (probably) since this was right in the middle of the Fleischer studio shutdown, they couldn't go back and reshoot the scenes, so instead, they zoomed up and/or diffused several shots to hide the errors; I'm assuming that the weird, blurry closeup of the gorilla's head when he breaks free is one of those scenes, since it looks like that in every single copy I've ever seen. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

I don't care if the WB versions have problems - I will not accept this claim people are making that they are only "marginally" better than the Image/Bosko releases. To me, that smacks of simply dismissing any possibility of improvement out of spite over the errors.

Someone should, however, track down 1.) the copies on the George Reeves TV show videos from the late 80s; 2.) recordings off of Nickelodeon (which often replaced the Paramount logo with an 80s Warner Bros. logo), and 3.) recordings off of Cartoon Network (which were completely intact, IIRC - I'm not sure if they were official, but I remember them looking sharper than most PD releases). I'm curious to see what WB's previous "official" video masters looked like, and can only vaguely remember the CN prints.

[Lee Glover]

Like I said in my earlier post, I only had a quick glance at the contents. Having made a start of watching the cartoons proper, yes there is an improvement in the picture quality, but there are a few more visual blemishes that are even more distracting than on the Bosko versions. "Marginally" may have been the wrong word for describing the improvement, but it doesn't grab me in the same way as the restored pre-48 LTs.

However, I still find the wrong opening/closing music on the majority of the shorts to be quite a shocking lack of quality control. I just don't understand why they needed to shoehorn the prologue on a couple of Famous shorts, and the tacking-on of the wrong closing music on "Jungle Drums" before the closing song gets the chance to finish does slightly spoil my enjoyment of that cartoon.

If I was able to rent this disc internationally, I would've stuck with my Bosko DVDs. However, I will retain both sets, and despite the mistakes, I dare say that WB's version is the best we can hope for, but it could potentially have been a fantastic set. If they included a couple of commentaries and perhaps a Fleischer short, it may entice casual buyers/cartoon fans to upgrade from whatever DVD version they have.

[TServo2049]

I agree, the errors are pretty bad. Jerry Beck said to me once that he even pointed them out to WB back when they first made the video masters and they didn't fix them.

The extra damage is probably because they utilized different prints than the ones which all the PD releases originate from.

I'm willing to bet that the negatives at UCLA are actually damaged, and some of them missing either their opening/end titles, their accompanying optical soundtrack reels, or both. The picture looks too sharp to come from a Technicolor *print*.

Though it still begs the question of where they sourced the great-looking versions from the "Adventures of Superman" videos. Couldn't they have just grabbed the audio from those IB Tech prints?

Makes you wish that Jerry Beck and the LTGC/Popeye people were in charge of *all* WB classic-cartoon releases...everything outside their control has been dodgy in various respects.

[Jack G.]

Makes you wish that Jerry Beck and the LTGC/Popeye people were in charge of *all* WB classic-cartoon releases...everything outside their control has been dodgy in various respects.I always hope they are in charge because it's the best hope for cartoons being released right on WHV.

As for this set: I'm holding off at the moment.
I'm a Fleischer fan but I've never cared for superheros.
I'll probably order it with my Jone's T&J order.

[Leviathan]

Makes you wish that Jerry Beck and the LTGC/Popeye people were in charge of *all* WB classic-cartoon releases...everything outside their control has been dodgy in various respects.

I just wish we still got classic animation releases from WB periods.

[Ray Pointer]

Having seen the restored cartoons, I will say that they are not "marginally" better than the Image/Bosko release. They are quite noticeably better, both image and sound-wise. The Superman cape and logo are actually *red*, not pale orange. Krypton glows *green*, not a slightly greenish gray. And the image is much sharper than any other copies I've ever seen. All PD releases we've seen originate from a set of 35mm prints (not sure if they were actual IB Tech prints, or what) which Jim Harmon of Comics Buyer's Guide acquired in the late 70s. They were a revelation compared to the crappy 16mm prints circulating, but they weren't restored, weren't remastered, they were PRINTS. And he could only find a 16mm dupe of Terror on the Midway.

Patrick McCart theorizes that these new DVD versions are, in fact, sourced from the original nitrate SENs held by UCLA. However, he noticed something interesting in UCLA's description of these negatives: they had no accompanying soundtracks. They were picture only.

If they had to get audio from other prints, it would explain why the opening and closing music is sometimes wrong. Not justify it, but explain why they would ineptly dub in the wrong music - there's always the danger of not putting people in charge who actually care enough to not simply drop in the soundtrack from the first one they find in the pile.

I specifically remember, from back when these versions debuted on In2TV, that the horrible splice in the Terror on the Midway opening is gone, and it doesn't seem like a fake video transition. Furthermore, the complete establishing pan was intact - the release which had the freeze frames was, IIRC, the awful re-sountracked WinStar release.

Also, the "lower quality" footage - I read somewhere that some scenes look out of focus because some animation/camera errors were discovered during post-production, and (probably) since this was right in the middle of the Fleischer studio shutdown, they couldn't go back and reshoot the scenes, so instead, they zoomed up and/or diffused several shots to hide the errors; I'm assuming that the weird, blurry closeup of the gorilla's head when he breaks free is one of those scenes, since it looks like that in every single copy I've ever seen. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

I don't care if the WB versions have problems - I will not accept this claim people are making that they are only "marginally" better than the Image/Bosko releases. To me, that smacks of simply dismissing any possibility of improvement out of spite over the errors.

Someone should, however, track down 1.) the copies on the George Reeves TV show videos from the late 80s; 2.) recordings off of Nickelodeon (which often replaced the Paramount logo with an 80s Warner Bros. logo), and 3.) recordings off of Cartoon Network (which were completely intact, IIRC - I'm not sure if they were official, but I remember them looking sharper than most PD releases). I'm curious to see what WB's previous "official" video masters looked like, and can only vaguely remember the CN prints.

There were numerous production problems on the production of the SUPERMAN cartoons as documented in letters from Sam Buckwald to Techincolor labs in Hollywood. Items such as recalling certain scenes for corrections, redoing optical effects, etc. In one letter, there was a specific reference to the use of Dupont Recording Film causing problems in recording the soundtrack due to emulsion flaking and build up on THE BULLETTEERS. The resolution was to return to "good old reliable Eastman Stock." I have copies of these letters.

As for the speculation about the use of the soundtracks, this is still not a viable excuse. There are many versions with the complete and correct tracks on them. These existed when Warners was licensing the cartoons to cable in the 1990s. Again, it's a matter of going to the right sources, knowing the material, and most of all having properly stored the material.
If there is this much confusion, this tells us a great deal about the state of the situation and the attitude about the company's assets.

[ohmahaaha]

The question is would the correction of these errors significantly enhance one's ability to enjoy this DVD set??

[Ray Pointer]

The question is would the correction of these errors significantly enhance one's ability to enjoy this DVD set??

Part of the frustration is that people are familiar with the correct content through unofficial releases. It is disappointing when the owners of the films fail to release an "Official Release" with access to the film elements that is altered or flawed compared to those unofficial releases. While the opportunity for having superior images is in their hands, it is a deficiency in completeness to have flawed or mismatched soundtrack content coming from the company that owns the material.

[craigoman8]

Amen, Ray. You have that perfectly right. -Craig

[Duck Dodgers]

Which way the shorts were originally released?
All of them had the intro about Superman's legacy or not?

[Ray Pointer]

Which way the shorts were originally released?All of them had the intro about Superman's legacy or not?

No. The SUPERMAN coming to Earth was only on the first cartoon. The summary of his powers was the repeated footage.

[Duck Dodgers]

No. The SUPERMAN coming to Earth was only on the first cartoon. The summary of his powers was the repeated footage.

Thanks.
So that intro was added for TV airings of the shorts?
WE might create our own perfect copies just using the video from this new release, the sound from the Image dvd and deleting that unnecessary intro.
Hope a certain Canadian friend of mine is reading....:p

P.S.: Still hope WB will do another disc change program (I've lost the count of the times they had to do it) and fix everything.

[Keith Paynter]

Thumbing through so many posts, I don't think anyone has hit on the likely main reason for WB to alter the prints this way, and that is to help curb piracy of these versions. Anybody and their canary can make dupes of the Superman cartoons from whatever source they see fit, regardless of the 'legal warning' that occurs. It seems that the best way for WB to help curb their losses is to present these shorts altered. The Bosko/Image disc has release dates imbedded into each cartoon. It would require some major digital post by an interested party to try to make clean versions out of this series (and still find a way to protect it from the next guy).

If you have the deluxe WB Superman tin box, consider yourself lucky. You have the best versions anywhere.

[Duck Dodgers]

If you have the deluxe WB Superman tin box, consider yourself lucky. You have the best versions anywhere.


Why?It does not have the audio troubles?

[MarkTheShark]

Thumbing through so many posts, I don't think anyone has hit on the likely main reason for WB to alter the prints this way, and that is to help curb piracy of these versions. Anybody and their canary can make dupes of the Superman cartoons from whatever source they see fit, regardless of the 'legal warning' that occurs. It seems that the best way for WB to help curb their losses is to present these shorts altered. The Bosko/Image disc has release dates imbedded into each cartoon. It would require some major digital post by an interested party to try to make clean versions out of this series (and still find a way to protect it from the next guy).

If you have the deluxe WB Superman tin box, consider yourself lucky. You have the best versions anywhere.

But the problem -- ironically -- is that those alterations have not prevented the cartoons from being "pirated" by public domain distributors -- see the many Digiview versions of the Superman shorts with Bosko's superimposed release dates.

So everyone loses. Dave's transfers get pilfered by a bunch of dollar DVD distributors, and we get (what at the time were) the best transfers available, with the dates superimposed. Information that, if we needed to know it, all we had to do was look at the back of the DVD case anyway, where it also appears.

[gdX]

But the problem -- ironically -- is that those alterations have not prevented the cartoons from being "pirated" by public domain distributors

Which in turn likely influenced WB's decision not to restore the title footage correctly, esp after having been informed of deficiencies by Jerry (if that is in fact true)... the accountant pinheads probably projected that they couldn't recoup the cost.

Superman cartoons have been distributed to death... Warner's only marketing hook is that the picture quality is the best that it's been to date.

:shame:

[FleischerFan]

So that intro was added for TV airings of the shorts? No.

The prologue dealing with his origin being added to other cartoons is something new - something that came from this particular Warners restoration effort.



The SUPERMAN coming to Earth was only on the first cartoon. The summary of his powers was the repeated footage. IIRC (and I rewatched the series a few months back), not every summary of his powers was the same. For example, there is one opening that explains Superman's X-ray vision. That was used in front of a cartoon where he actually used that power within the cartoon. Yet, most of the intros don't mention his X-ray vision at all.



P.S.: Still hope WB will do another disc change program (I've lost the count of the times they had to do it) and fix everything.I doubt we're going to see any recall/replacement effort on these. As Keith pointed out, some of these changes may have been intentional. Secondly, these errors were pointed out, apparently, by Jerry when the Superman Ultimate Box set was being assembled - and it has been thoroughly discussed on Internet forums since the Superman Ultimate set was released.

IF W-B had intentions of correcting these errors, they would have done so already.

[Ray Pointer]

No.

The prologue dealing with his origin being added to other cartoons is something new - something that came from this particular Warners restoration effort.

IIRC (and I rewatched the series a few months back), not every summary of his powers was the same. For example, there is one opening that explains Superman's X-ray vision. That was used in front of a cartoon where he actually used that power within the cartoon. Yet, most of the intros don't mention his X-ray vision at all.


No to the prologue comment. The prolog from SUPERMAN #1 was reprinted and added to black and white TV prints of each of the cartoons.
Then the "Mightier that the pounding surface, roaring hurricane, etc. was added as the endings. I had prints of these at one time until I was able to replace them with color prints.

The X-Ray Vision explanation was at the intro to MECHANICAL MONSTERS since this was the first time SUPERMAN was seen using this power.

[sumnernor]

I bought the "Superman Ultimate Collector's edition". From this thread, it appears the recently released Superman cartoon box is slightly different than what I have. For the "Superman Ultimate Collection", the Superman cartoons are on disc 4 (the 9 Fleischer cartoons) and disc 7 (the 8 Famous Studios cartoons). Missing is the mentioning of "X-ray eyes" for the cartoon "The Mechanical Monsters".

The Kryptonite history in given before "Superman", "The Mechanical Monsters" on disc 4 and on disc 7 before the cartoons "11th Hour" and "Jungle Drums". It appears that all 4 were the same text.

The audio problem "Truth-Justice" was with "Superman", "The Mechanical Monsters" on disc 4 (subtitles had "Truth Justice")and on disc 7 before the cartoons "11th Hour" and "Jungle Drums" (but subtitles has Truth and Justice". All the other cartoons had "Truth and Justice" both in audio and subtitles.

One question that I have was with the cartoon "Destruction, Inc.". Was something cut from that cartoon? Junk was dropped on top of the nightwatchman and then later Superman jumps out of that pile of junk. Later at the very end, we see that Clark Kent was the nightwatchman in disguise. It appears to me that something was missing.

[Jon Cooke]

I have posted a must-read review by our own Steve Siegert which goes into detail about the good and bad points (including pointing out the alterations) of this new Superman set: http://reviews.goldenagecartoons.com/2009/superman-01/

Thanks, Steve!

[raginggoodfella]

The reviewer notes the he perfers THE COMPLETE S. CARTOONS DIAMONSD ANNIV. EDITION. Is there any differences between this dvd edition vs. the BOSKO 3 Volume VHS Set?

[zavkram]

I just read Steve's review of the set... I thought it was good, overall; although it also looks as though the very last sentence (or paragraph?) has somehow been cut off at the end. Maybe my eyes were just playing tricks on me...