Semi OT: Digital Ink and Paint

[tristar]

I was wondering what everyone here thinks of digital ink and paint in modern cartoons. I for one think this is a very ugly process.
Watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ_HWyAcy-U&fmt=18) as great animation is ruined by digital ink and paint. (Warning: clip is in Serbian). Compare it to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwh_ikB6m2k&feature=related) traditional cel animated episode. Doesn't the second clip look and feel warmer? During the Seventh season of the Simpsons, there were a few episodes that used digital ink and paint. "Radioactive Man" was one of them. That was a funny episode, but the digital I&P looked extremely harsh.

So, what does everyone else think?

[Leviathan]

The redubbed voices of the "Kilted Yaksmen" clip are far more detrimental than any digital coloring.

If the results look good, then I won't view one process as being superior/inferior to the other.

[Gasmask Ted]

I'm not sure it's fair to cite one of the first examples of digital ink and paint from a cartoon that's old enough to get a driver's license as condemning all of digital ink and paint.
Also note that the backgrounds are also washed out in spite of the fact that they were done in the real world. It may have been an intentional color choice, possibly as a commentary on the color palette of Canada itself...

[Ray Pointer]

Having worked in the process, perhaps I can add some enlightenment. Anyone who has seen the Post COCOA PEBBLES spots with The Flintstones characters will think that they were painted cel technique. They weren't. They were ditigally painted using a matching pallette to the original color models. The backgrounds were hand painted and scanned, as were the pencil drawings. We approximated the outer thick outline by making it four times thicker in pencil. The scanner read these lines as solid black. All this was done through USAnimation.

It's a matter of whether idealisitically wants to hold onto a time-consuming and resorce wasting process as the cel technique was, or move forward with a process that accomplishes the same thing with the added improvements of faster completion, reduced storage space, and most of all no dust speck or cel level limitations. In short, the effectiveness of the process is only as good as its application in the hands of those in control. My complaint is that in some hands, there is not enough contrast in color value. The intensity of the hues is the same and
backgrounds at times seem to bright. I have seen this especially in sequences that were supposed to take place in a dark environment where the character were using torches for illumination. The odd thing is, the scene was already bright enough not to need the torches. But such things can be the result of an inconsistency in compatibility between computer screen calibration and television screen calibration, which I have discovered in recent years.

[wiley207]

I actually liked the digital ink and paint look on those Spumco-produced "Ren & Stimpy" episodes that used it. After all, the infamous "Man's Best Friend" used it too (and was the first episode to do so). Into the Games era, they would still occasionally use digital ink and paint, and by "Adult Party Cartoon," every episode was.

I remember the Simpsons' early experiments with digital ink and paint, such as the Radioactive Man movie episode from 1995. Comparing it today with a more recent episode, the animation looks surprisingly similar, though the colors are a tiny bit different.

The earliest use of digital ink and paint in Disney was a few shots in "The Little Mermaid;" the rest of the film was Xeroxed and hand-painted. After that, EVERY Disney film used it, using the CAPS system. "The Princess and the Frog" is also supposed to be done in digital ink and paint, but will not be using the old CAPS system.

Anyways, at least they made digital ink and paint look rather good in "Looney Tunes Back in Action!"

[PudgieDParrot]

In the cel days, the placement of parts of a character on separate levels (especially common in limited animation) was often given away by some parts of the character appearing lighter or darker than other parts (the darker parts being on a bottom cel). Paint seams on some parts also seemed to cast shadows under the camera lights, even with a glass platen applying pressure to the cels. In the DI&P era, all the colours are consistent, so layering is not visually evident.

Although cel painting may seem obsolete now, I still find it a very fun art project. I trace my drawing with a crow-quill pen and India ink onto an overhead-projector transparency sheet, then use acrylic paints to opaque the characters on the flipside. After which I attatch the cel to a piece of construction paper.

[Studio Toledo]

I was wondering what everyone here thinks of digital ink and paint in modern cartoons. I for one think this is a very ugly process.
Watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ_HWyAcy-U&fmt=18) as great animation is ruined by digital ink and paint. (Warning: clip is in Serbian). Compare it to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwh_ikB6m2k&feature=related) traditional cel animated episode. Doesn't the second clip look and feel warmer?
You really can't judge it due to age, as that episode came out some 16 years ago, the technology then wasn't as perfect as it may seem today. I personally found it off-putting at first as it made everything appear sterile and straight, but as the resolutions got to be far more exact and higher as the years went on, I saw less and less to say about it as I felt it was OK and well worth the research they put into it.

During the Seventh season of the Simpsons, there were a few episodes that used digital ink and paint. "Radioactive Man" was one of them. That was a funny episode, but the digital I&P looked extremely harsh.
Well, they use it now for it, and I don't see no need to say more about that.

[Studio Toledo]

Having worked in the process, perhaps I can add some enlightenment. Anyone who has seen the Post COCOA PEBBLES spots with The Flintstones characters will think that they were painted cel technique. They weren't. They were ditigally painted using a matching pallette to the original color models. The backgrounds were hand painted and scanned, as were the pencil drawings. We approximated the outer thick outline by making it four times thicker in pencil. The scanner read these lines as solid black. All this was done through USAnimation.
Very typical of the DIP process! (an animator pal I knew would abbreviate it as that)

It's a matter of whether idealisitically wants to hold onto a time-consuming and resorce wasting process as the cel technique was, or move forward with a process that accomplishes the same thing with the added improvements of faster completion, reduced storage space, and most of all no dust speck or cel level limitations.
This is why I can't complain over that, I see the potential for what it did, despite eliminating a job that some may have been in or years and found enjoyable if you can keep up with the pace and speed.

In short, the effectiveness of the process is only as good as its application in the hands of those in control. My complaint is that in some hands, there is not enough contrast in color value. The intensity of the hues is the same and
backgrounds at times seem to bright. I have seen this especially in sequences that were supposed to take place in a dark environment where the character were using torches for illumination. The odd thing is, the scene was already bright enough not to need the torches. But such things can be the result of an inconsistency in compatibility between computer screen calibration and television screen calibration, which I have discovered in recent years.
Shame really.

[Studio Toledo]

In the cel days, the placement of parts of a character on separate levels (especially common in limited animation) was often given away by some parts of the character appearing lighter or darker than other parts (the darker parts being on a bottom cel).
One of those things I had to take note of when I first watched the classic Hanna-Barbera cartoons and noticed how that happened. The it morphed itself into other limitations of the cel medium that have to be taken into account (such as slight dust/scratches).

Paint seams on some parts also seemed to cast shadows under the camera lights, even with a glass platen applying pressure to the cels.
Basically slight shadows around the outlines would annoying me, especially if they did zoom-in close-ups, but I had to learn to annoy 'em too. Course then I started noticing painting errors beyond just mis-coloring, such as slight transparencies of certain colors due to careless effort in coating the cels properly (though I kinda had the impression they watered down the paints a tad much).

In the DI&P era, all the colours are consistent, so layering is not visually evident.
Reason why I don't think about this anymore.

Although cel painting may seem obsolete now, I still find it a very fun art project. I trace my drawing with a crow-quill pen and India ink onto an overhead-projector transparency sheet, then use acrylic paints to opaque the characters on the flipside. After which I attatch the cel to a piece of construction paper.
I once did something like that as a birthday picture for my sis (and used actual acetate cels rather than overhead transparency sheets). You can also try animating using cels and grabbing those frames digitally through a camera hooked into a PC as well.

[Ray Pointer]

In the cel days, the placement of parts of a character on separate levels (especially common in limited animation) was often given away by some parts of the character appearing lighter or darker than other parts (the darker parts being on a bottom cel). Paint seams on some parts also seemed to cast shadows under the camera lights, even with a glass platen applying pressure to the cels. In the DI&P era, all the colours are consistent, so layering is not visually evident.
Although cel painting may seem obsolete now, I still find it a very fun art project. I trace my drawing with a crow-quill pen and India ink onto an overhead-projector transparency sheet, then use acrylic paints to opaque the characters on the flipside. After which I attatch the cel to a piece of construction paper.

The unmatched color values were due to not using "comp colors" to accomodate the cel desity. When done correctly, the color on top is matched by using a one-step "grayed" color to that under that cel level.
When done correctly, these things don't show as much. This was not as sensitive of an issue in early television production since it was assumed that this density difference would not show on television, which actuall did.

[GarudaBoy!]

Put it this way: would you yourself rather be (a) tracing (or Xeroxing) and painting cels day after day, adjusting colors for various levels to make up for the issue that PudgieDParrot brought up...

...or (b) using a simpler, cheaper, and quicker process using a computer program?

The warmth or quality of digital ink and paint can be made to match hand-drawn techniques. It all depends upon the people and the processes being used. Colors can be chosen and/or adjusted to make them look warm. Disney's been using digital ink and paint for twenty years, yet there's no serious lack of warmth in computer-colored Disney films. If anything, the character art looks much better than the 1980s films, though I do miss the look of a lot of the analog special effects (however, digital techniques have progressed enough today to where things like backlighting, etc. can be replicated in the computer).

[J. J. Hunsecker]

I was wondering what everyone here thinks of digital ink and paint in modern cartoons. I for one think this is a very ugly process.
Watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ_HWyAcy-U&fmt=18) as great animation is ruined by digital ink and paint. (Warning: clip is in Serbian). Compare it to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwh_ikB6m2k&feature=related) traditional cel animated episode. Doesn't the second clip look and feel warmer? During the Seventh season of the Simpsons, there were a few episodes that used digital ink and paint. "Radioactive Man" was one of them. That was a funny episode, but the digital I&P looked extremely harsh.

So, what does everyone else think?

Your example from Kilted Yaksmen is a poor quality dupe. In the broadcast airing and video and DVD releases of the cartoon, the digital ink lines looked good. In fact, they looked better than the weak xeroxed pencil lines from the earlier episodes. (Space Madness wasn't hand inked, but had the pencil drawings photocopied onto cels.) With digital ink and paint, it was easier to fake thick and thin paintbrush ink lines, and well as colored ink lines. Digital ink and paint only looks poor if the resolution is low, and one can see jagged edges on the lines.

[Studio Toledo]

Your example from Kilted Yaksmen is a poor quality dupe. In the broadcast airing and video and DVD releases of the cartoon, the digital ink lines looked good. In fact, they looked better than the weak xeroxed pencil lines from the earlier episodes. (Space Madness wasn't hand inked, but had the pencil drawings photocopied onto cels.)
I often didn't favor the first season based how weak the 'roxed lines were. In the second season, it was as if they used a marker to make those lines stand out on paper prior to the xerography and it showed up a lot better on the screen.

With digital ink and paint, it was easier to fake thick and thin paintbrush ink lines, and well as colored ink lines. Digital ink and paint only looks poor if the resolution is low, and one can see jagged edges on the lines.
What it had been back when Hanna-Barbera was doing that on shows like The Jetsons and it was stood out a lot over the improvements in the technology that followed. I remember noticing early Ren & Stimpy episodes that were done in the DIP process were the zooms sometimes still had that odd shift between the characters and backgrounds in trying to stabilize during the execution, but it continued to get better as the years went on.

[Ray Pointer]

Although cel painting may seem obsolete now, I still find it a very fun art project. I trace my drawing with a crow-quill pen and India ink onto an overhead-projector transparency sheet, then use acrylic paints to opaque the characters on the flipside. After which I attatch the cel to a piece of construction paper.

It is not an acrylic paint, but a latex based paint the consistency of temperara. Before the development of latex, the studios invented their own paint formulas to work on cels because there was no such thing as a rubber-based paint then. Regular tempora paint will not stay on the cels once dried because it cracks and falls off when the cels are handeled.
The solution was to mix tempora paint with Kayo Syrup. The Syrup made the paint flexible enough to stay on the cels without cracking. But it attracted roaches as the cels were placed on the drying shelves over night.

[Studio Toledo]

It is not an acrylic paint, but a latex based paint the consistency of temporara.
I guess the word you're looking for is "tempera". :p

[quote]Before the development of latex, the studios invented their own paint formulas to work on cels because there was no such thing as a rubber-based paint then. Regular tempora paint will not stay on the cels once dried because it cracks and falls off when the cels are handeled.
The solution was to mix tempora paint with Kayo Syrup. The Syrup made the paint flexible enough to stay on the cels without cracking. But it attracted roaches as the cels were placed on the drying shelves over night.
At least they were innovating their craft! Never thought Kayo had so many possibilities. :D

[TServo2049]

The worst digital ink and paint I've seen, at least for a major cartoon, dates back to the late 80s/early 90s period when it was first being experimented with. Let me count down my bottom 3:

3. The early Hanna-Barbera computer ink and paint projects from the mid 80s (The Jetsons, Yogi's Treasure Hunt, etc.)
2. American Film Technologies' experiments with computer ink and paint for Marvel (season 2 of Attack of the Killer Tomatoes); I'm surprised that AFT's DI&P We're Back! looked as good as it did after having seen the horrible video-based DI&P on Killer Tomatoes.

and...

1. The first season of the Problem Child cartoon, done by D'Ocon Films in Spain. I didn't even know these episodes existed until Universal made them available on Hulu - I only remembered the second season, which was done by Lacewood Productions in Canada, with overseas work, including traditional ink and paint/camera, by Akom. (The 90s VHS releases only contained episodes from season 2 - maybe Universal realized how horrible season 1 looked!) If you think you can stand the torture, look up Problem Child on Hulu. Warning: Your eyes may bleed if you watch for more than 30 seconds. :D

[tristar]

The worst digital ink and paint I've seen, at least for a major cartoon, dates back to the late 80s/early 90s period when it was first being experimented with. Let me count down my bottom 3:

3. The early Hanna-Barbera computer ink and paint projects from the mid 80s (The Jetsons, Yogi's Treasure Hunt, etc.)
2. American Film Technologies' experiments with computer ink and paint for Marvel (season 2 of Attack of the Killer Tomatoes); I'm surprised that AFT's DI&P We're Back! looked as good as it did after having seen the horrible video-based DI&P on Killer Tomatoes.

and...

1. The first season of the Problem Child cartoon, done by D'Ocon Films in Spain. I didn't even know these episodes existed until Universal made them available on Hulu - I only remembered the second season, which was done by Lacewood Productions in Canada, with overseas work, including traditional ink and paint/camera, by Akom. (The 90s VHS releases only contained episodes from season 2 - maybe Universal realized how horrible season 1 looked!) If you think you can stand the torture, look up Problem Child on Hulu. Warning: Your eyes may bleed if you watch for more than 30 seconds. :D
We don't have Hulu up here in Canada, so I typed it in on Youtube and found this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMWuyuv3gzU).

You're right, I couldn't watch after 30 seconds... it was hurting my mind! :p

[TServo2049]

We don't have Hulu up here in Canada, so I typed it in on Youtube and found this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMWuyuv3gzU).

You're right, I couldn't watch after 30 seconds... it was hurting my mind! :p

No, that's actually animation from the second season. The first season is much much worse (Hal Erickson's "Animated TV Series", which was written in 1993 soon after the series' premiere, compared the ink and paint to a 1980s video game.)

This is what the first season looks like:
http://thumbnails.hulu.com/6/618/5732_512x288_manicured__-jFe9yhfHUy2Ycjw-W5o8A.jpghttp://thumbnails.hulu.com/7/687/5737_512x288_manicured__-il4ZM3md0KM9DfVGryh-g.jpg
http://thumbnails.hulu.com/6/618/5727_512x288_manicured__xnwoNC6GfEiS30KQW+GQuA.jpg http://thumbnails.hulu.com/6/625/6240_512x288_manicured__gUdPM2Kl2keb3L12vz--ow.jpg
http://thumbnails.hulu.com/6/618/5728_512x288_manicured__zKpdAWRnPEaRTntOa1T9GQ.jpg

[tristar]

No, that's actually animation from the second season. The first season is much much worse (Hal Erickson's "Animated TV Series", which was written in 1993 soon after the series' premiere, compared the ink and paint to a 1980s video game.)

This is what the first season looks like:
http://thumbnails.hulu.com/6/618/5732_512x288_manicured__-jFe9yhfHUy2Ycjw-W5o8A.jpghttp://thumbnails.hulu.com/7/687/5737_512x288_manicured__-il4ZM3md0KM9DfVGryh-g.jpg
http://thumbnails.hulu.com/6/618/5727_512x288_manicured__xnwoNC6GfEiS30KQW+GQuA.jpg http://thumbnails.hulu.com/6/625/6240_512x288_manicured__gUdPM2Kl2keb3L12vz--ow.jpg
http://thumbnails.hulu.com/6/618/5728_512x288_manicured__zKpdAWRnPEaRTntOa1T9GQ.jpg
Eeeeeeeeewwwwwwww...

[Studio Toledo]

The worst digital ink and paint I've seen, at least for a major cartoon, dates back to the late 80s/early 90s period when it was first being experimented with. Let me count down my bottom 3:

3. The early Hanna-Barbera computer ink and paint projects from the mid 80s (The Jetsons, Yogi's Treasure Hunt, etc.)
2. American Film Technologies' experiments with computer ink and paint for Marvel (season 2 of Attack of the Killer Tomatoes); I'm surprised that AFT's DI&P We're Back! looked as good as it did after having seen the horrible video-based DI&P on Killer Tomatoes.
I remember thinking it didn't look any better than an animated cut scene in an Amiga game!

and...

1. The first season of the Problem Child cartoon, done by D'Ocon Films in Spain. I didn't even know these episodes existed until Universal made them available on Hulu - I only remembered the second season, which was done by Lacewood Productions in Canada, with overseas work, including traditional ink and paint/camera, by Akom. (The 90s VHS releases only contained episodes from season 2 - maybe Universal realized how horrible season 1 looked!) If you think you can stand the torture, look up Problem Child on Hulu. Warning: Your eyes may bleed if you watch for more than 30 seconds. :D
I remember seeing the first season and didn't think much about it, but it was pretty odd how they sent the work to a Spanish studio like that. Even today, this studio still churns out terrible work it seems. A good example perhaps is a show that got released as $1 DVD's at Wal-Mart sometime ago called "Scruff".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlznBNB5GSY

[Douglas E.]

Eeeeeeeeewwwwwwww...
Dang it! I was going to say that! :mad: :p

-Doug (Who thinks that Digital Ink & Paint is just as good as "Traditional" Ink & Paint)

[Ray Pointer]

[quote=Ray Pointer;137534]It is not an acrylic paint, but a latex based paint the consistency of temporara.
I guess the word you're looking for is "tempera". :pAt least they were innovating their craft! Never thought Kayo had so many possibilities. :D

The "tempora" typo has been corrected. On this budget, there is no allowance for proof readers at times! But it's the thought and the information that counts!:D

[Studio Toledo]

[quote=Studio Toledo;137552]

The "tempora" typo has been corrected. On this budget, there is no allowance for proof readers at times! But it's the thought and the information that counts!:D
Thanks. Surprised the internet has a budget too. :D

[PF9]

looks like Viacommunism got to the second link

(seriously, they have gotta stop)