Popeye Cartoons: Lessons In Cultural History

[Ray Pointer]

An interesting thing about many of the early black and white POPEYE cartoons is their focus on living conditions that reflect a time 30 years before they were made. A number of early 20th Century conditions are portrayed in cartoons such as SHOEIN' HOSSES, about a Blacksmith's Shop, BE KIND TO AMINALS with a horse-drawn banana wagon and curbside water trofts for horses, and old fashioned barber shops as in A CLEAN SHAVEN MAN. These are just a few examples of carryovers from the Victorian Age that created a nostalgic sense for Depression Audiences. What other examples, not just of the Victorian Era, but of other historical references do you spot?

[Jack G.]

Ummm...
Looking at a photographic history of my hometown I see horses were used
well past the Victorian age.
There was a grocery wagon that was working well into the 1920's.
In farming animal driven methods existed beyond that to the 40's.

I'm also reminded of the Laurel & Hardy short The Music Box where they use a horse for their work.

Even though the automobile was used during the time of Popeye, older methods lingered on for quite a while.

[J Lee]

Some of the old-time grungy NYC waterfront settings were recreated to some extent in a few of the Popeye shorts, while when they wanted a more "suburban" feel to the cartoons (as in Olive having her own home instead of an apartment), the Flesicher crew borrowed a lot of designs from what had just gone up way, way out in Forest Hills (and for those of you not familiar with NYC neighborhoods, as :foggy: would say, "That's a joke, son".)

[Gasmask Ted]

Would horse drawn banana carts be a holdover? My mom remembers horse drawn food, with a German emigre yelling "wegetables", in the '50s, albeit in a more rural area than NYC...

[Jack G.]

Would horse drawn banana carts be a holdover? My mom remembers horse drawn food, with a German emigre yelling "wegetables", in the '50s, albeit in a more rural area than NYC...Things held over, I believe.
It's not like theres a day when you go "OK, the Victorian era is over, no more horses."

Things linger on, particularly if it's someone of an older generation.
My grandmother barely has a clue what the internet is. She still does things "the old-fashion way".

So imagine some old-timer going, "Nope. I'm not putting my bannas in no truck. The fumes dirty my fruit."

Plus in more rural areas "progress" came later.
My Grandfather was born after the Victorian era was over but he got to ride to the city in a horse-drawn carriage.
He didn't get his first car 'til the late 20's early thirties.

Sorry about getting side-tracked.
I just don't see the things described restricted to a certain era.

Now just what would be considered an old-fashioned barbershop?
The one seen in Clean Shaven Man looks like the ones I went to in the 70s it's just much larger.

[frizfrelengfan]

I think that horse-drawn commercial wagons were used long after people started driving cars. I see horse-drawn wagons and cars co-existing in lots of old films.

[cpdavison]

The organ grinder & his monkey in "ORGAN GRINDER SWING" is certainly a curio of that period's cultural landscape.

[David Gerstein]

The organ grinder & his monkey in "ORGAN GRINDER SWING" is certainly a curio of that period's cultural landscape.I've seen active organ grinders in Manhattan and London. Only stuffed plush monkeys, though—no real ones. Darn those simian labor laws.

[Paul Penna]

Diners made out of old railway coaches (We Aim to Please). Frequently seen in live-action films of the 30s-40s as well.

[Jack]

In some areas it takes longer for things from past times to fade away. I have relatives who remember horse-drawn ice wagons in the 40's and early 50's. Also, look at your typical (older) school of today and you'll see that it's practically a time capsule of the 50's-70's. The room I had 8th grade typing class in looked more like something out of 1977 than 1997, what with the institutional green asbestos flooring and the harvest gold electric typewriters. A couple years ago I saw the inside of a Catholic high school built in the late 50's - the only thing indicating that it was 2007 was the presence of computers and the people wearing contemporary clothing.

Also, bear in mind that two world wars and a great depression forced people to keep a lot of Victorian things around. I've read antique guides and books that spoke of how the sturdiness of Victorian furniture made it a second-hand favorite decades after it ceased to be stylish. It wasn't until the affluence of the 1950's that it started to be erased in great quantities.

[Mac]

An interesting thing about many of the early black and white POPEYE cartoons is their focus on living conditions that reflect a time 30 years before they were made. A number of early 20th Century conditions are portrayed in cartoons such as SHOEIN' HOSSES, about a Blacksmith's Shop, BE KIND TO AMINALS with a horse-drawn banana wagon and curbside water trofts for horses, and old fashioned barber shops as in A CLEAN SHAVEN MAN. These are just a few examples of carryovers from the Victorian Age that created a nostalgic sense for Depression Audiences. What other examples, not just of the Victorian Era, but of other historical references do you spot?

I thought these things were contemporary in the time the Popeye cartoons were made! For me, the horse-drawn banana wagon didn't seem out of place since my Grandad used to deliver milk with a horse and cart and that would have been after the early Popeye cartoons were made (in fact I think this was after the war!). This was in England rather than America so of course things would have been different, but I assumed horse-drawn wagons were used in the 30's and were not a nostalgic depiction of an earlier time. Seeing as I thought this, water troughs and blacksmith shops did not seem out of place either.

Although very attractively drawn (as with most other backgrounds in the 30's Popeyes) I didn't think the barber shop was supposed to look particularly old-fashioned either. I thought the only throwback in that one were Popeyes and Bluto's hair and moustache styles (which is part of the joke sine they're not used to making an effort when it comes to their looks and appear hilarious after their makeovers). I wasn't around in America in the 30s so it's hard for me to know what things were like, but next time I'm watching Volume One of the Popeye DVDs, I'll keep more of a look out for things that seem to hark back to an earlier time.

[Fibber Fox]

I think that horse-drawn commercial wagons were used long after people started driving cars. I see horse-drawn wagons and cars co-existing in lots of old films.

I don't know about NYC, but pictures of Vancouver show a few of them in the late '20s. I would imagine the Depression probably killed off the last of the livery stables.

F. Fox

[Ray Pointer]

Things such as Gas Street Lamps were a throwback to the Gay 90s. Also wooden sidewalks.

[Jack G.]

Wooden sidewalks?

Never noticed that.

I'll have to check that out.

[J Lee]

In some areas it takes longer for things from past times to fade away. I have relatives who remember horse-drawn ice wagons in the 40's and early 50's. Also, look at your typical (older) school of today and you'll see that it's practically a time capsule of the 50's-70's. The room I had 8th grade typing class in looked more like something out of 1977 than 1997, what with the institutional green asbestos flooring and the harvest gold electric typewriters. A couple years ago I saw the inside of a Catholic high school built in the late 50's - the only thing indicating that it was 2007 was the presence of computers and the people wearing contemporary clothing.

I was surprised to find my elementary school is now serving as the exterior shot for the school on the Disney show "Wizards of Waverly Place". It's still open as P.S. 40 in New York, and just marked its 110th anniversary last year, so that building was already 35 years old when the first Popeye cartoon was made.

(The school is on East 20th St., which back when the Fleischers were making their cartoons was on the western edge of the city's Gaslight District, which was one of the rougher ones in Manhattan, complete with the obligatory noisy elevated train a half block east of the school. All that was wiped out by new developments after World War II, but it was that type of seediness that gave the Fleischers design ideas for their cartoons.)

[Mark J]

Things such as Gas Street Lamps were a throwback to the Gay 90s. Also wooden sidewalks.

Philadelphia and other cities had gas street lights into the 1940s. Horse drawn wagons for delivering milk, vegetables etc. were common in NYC and other cities into the 1950s. Wooden plank sidwalks were still around in the 1930s in areas where streets had not yet been paved (most that were paved were still paved with cobblestones from the 19th century). You are thinking things were a bit more advanced in the 30s than they actually were.

[Ray Pointer]

Philadelphia and other cities had gas street lights into the 1940s. Horse drawn wagons for delivering milk, vegetables etc. were common in NYC and other cities into the 1950s. Wooden plank sidwalks were still around in the 1930s in areas where streets had not yet been paved (most that were paved were still paved with cobblestones from the 19th century). You are thinking things were a bit more advanced in the 30s than they actually were.

The things you describe may have been retained for historical value, as Philadelphia has its historical district. Having lived there a short while, I am aware of this. Having started this thread, I am also aware of the historical context which cites concepts that were already "old fashioned" at the times the films were made. As a means of comparison, films made in the 1930s depicting that period now serve as a documentation of the era besides how period accurate the cartoons may be. It can be understood that in some cases there was a depiction of earlier periods to create a mood or theme that gave the cartoon a certain grounding.
On the other hand, there were certain aspects in the POPEYE cartoons that reflected my old neighborhood in Detroit in the 1950s in terms of the architecture and exteriors such as frame buildings, board fences, brick streets, and gas storage tanks. There were old houses in rural areas with large rectangular door locks and big ivory knobs still in existance. My grandparents continued using wood burning stoves for cooking and heating until 1964. Regardless of how long such things continued into our existence, they are leftovers of the Victorian Age, and do crop up in the early POPEYE and other Fleischer cartoons. In this, something of a social history lesson exists in the depiction of these environments. This is what we are discussing here. Getting back on topic, there was an old fashioned Tintype photo of BLUTO in I YAM LOVE SICK, showing the head clamp that was used in early portrait work as another such example.

[FleischerFan]

The entire cartoon PUTTIN' ON THE ACT is a throwback. The conceit is that Popeye & Olive used to be a vaudeville act. Vaudeville had its heyday earlier in the century until it was dislodged by the early mass media of movies and radio.

The rest of that cartoon has Popeye and Olive recreating the types of widely divergent variety that was the heart of an evening at a vaudeville theater.

[Jack G.]

Regardless of how long such things continued into our existence, they are leftovers of the Victorian Age, and do crop up in the early POPEYE and other Fleischer cartoons. In this, something of a social history lesson exists in the depiction of these environments. This is what we are discussing here.I guess I don't get your point.

If something originating from one age is still used in a later age, does that mean it's an anomaly?
These elements probably are just a reflection of that time.
I don't imagine anyone at the Fleischer studio was inserting these elements for nostalgia.

[Gasmask Ted]

I don't think it would be surprising for there to be hold over jokes. Ray pointed out that out of date hair styles were used for humor. It's common in cartoons; Bugs and Daffy in vaudeville long after vaudeville was dead, characters in the '50s wearing '20s college outfits, etc. It seems perfectly feasible that some of the elements in Fleischer cartoons were playing on the same branch of humor.

[FleischerFan]

Keep in mind as well that the real "urbanization" of America took off during and after World War II - so cartoons made in the 30's still had to be "relatable" to those living in small towns and rural areas. In those areas, changes would have been even slower in coming.

[Ray Pointer]

Keep in mind as well that the real "urbanization" of America took off during and after World War II - so cartoons made in the 30's still had to be "relatable" to those living in small towns and rural areas. In those areas, changes would have been even slower in coming.

It wasn't so much a conscious effort to make the cartoos "relatable" to audiences, but a reflection of the artists' experiences. In many cases, reaching back to some archaic devices did create a sense of mood, humor, and nostalgia that registered with audiences. Many of these things defined reality and a balance between perceived better times compared to the difficulties of the Depression. In another respect, one can look at how slowly things had progressed in 30 years. Some areas of the country today still seem 30 years behind the times with people continuing to wear clothes and sporting hair styles from the 1970s. But they may do these things out of a lack of sytlistic awareness or a form of laziness over nostalgia simply because they "like it." And getting back on target, women were not wearing high-buttoned shoes or boots like those worn by OLIVE OYL in the 1930s.

[Bobby Bickert]

And getting back on target, women were not wearing high-buttoned shoes or boots like those worn by OLIVE OYL in the 1930s.

The real person that Segar based Olive on, Dora Paskel, who was the postmistress of Chester, Illinois, really did wear those old-fashioned high-button shoes.

[Ray Pointer]

The real person that Segar based Olive on, Dora Paskel, who was the postmistress of Chester, Illinois, really did wear those old-fashioned high-button shoes.

Yes, but OLIVE OYL goes back to the origin of THIMBLE THEATER, which makes her 10 years older than POPEYE.