Cartoon Discussion - The Hungry Goat

[Jon Cooke]

Now for something totally different. I know this is usually Marty's thing, but I thought I'd post a Cartoon Discussion thread just for the heck of it. As a change of pace, here's one of my favorite Famous Popeye shorts - 1943's "The Hungry Goat".

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x46xgb_the-hungry-goat_shortfilms

I think the reason I like it so much is that it is so UNLIKE any other Popeye short. It's filled with fast-paced WB-style humor and must set some sort of record for the most "fourth wall"-breaking in any classic-era cartoon. I'd love to see this one screened in an actual theater (I am sure viewing it on TV or the tiny DailyMotion screen doesn't do this cartoon justice).

Highlights - the totally random use of static poses (no idea how else to describe them) of the goat and Popeye reacting to each other at a couple points; the little kid in the audience who yells "Awww, why don't Popeye eat his spinach an' sock 'im one!?" (I am sure a lot of people were thinking that very question :p ); and the chase where Popeye is ramming the goat with his head, while the goat pretends he's driving a car (around the 4:55 mark... so random, yet hilarious). And, of course, the ending which was painstakingly recreated by the folks at Cartoon Network's Popeye Show (I am SO glad it will be the version on the upcoming DVD).

Plus, the music score is great.

:sailor:

[Matt the Y]

Jon already pretty much summed up my feelings about this great Popeye cartoon and the exact same reasons why I like it so much! It's superbly fast-paced, hysterical, and funny. That one-shot goat character himself has enough charisma, personality, and humor to make the cartoon a winner. Even from the beginning of the cartoon when he walks past the cartoon's title and observes it while singing that song and then asks the movie theater reelsman to re-wind the cartoon so he can re-read the title and confirm that he's supposed to be "hungry", we know we're in for a treat. NOT your average Popeye cartoon!

I wonder how much of Dan Gordon's input was responsible for the unusual humor in this short. A lot of the other Popeye shorts with his name as director ("Seein' Red, White, 'N' Blue", "A Jolly Good Ferlough", and the ever cult-favorite "Happy Birthdaze") share this sort of oddball comedy and even some of the Fleischer shorts which give him story credit ("Popeye Meets William Tell", "Popeye Meets Rip Van Winkle", "Fleets of Stren'th") show stranger, more offbeat gags than usual. Even the earlier Hanna-Barbera cartoons (which admittedly vary a lot in terms of both quality and comedy from cartoon to cartoon) show a certain quirkiness to their approach to gag structure than their later shorts do ("Little Red Riding Huck" may actually be the funniest Hanna-Barbera cartoon ever made and that was a Charles Shows/Dan Gordon written effort).

[Mr. Semaj]

One animated (co-directed?) by Joe Oriolo. :felix:

When Famous Studios got started, they were fairly up-to-speed in the storytelling department, taking cues from a few WB cartoons of the time. (Cartoons Ain't Human (1943) was directly influenced by Tex Avery's Porky's Preview (1941)). Yet I can't recall any cartoon that made a gag out of clip posing. It works on so many levels.

This was mostly an exercise of how a random cartoon character could interract with his audience, since it's mostly just the goat avoiding Popeye long enough to eat up most of the ship (not boat, folks). But this examplifies the problem of showing some of these shorts on television, because it just doesn't provide the same effect as it probably did in theatres.

Compare all this to the following decade, when the typical Famous output had become little more than mere product.

[Geezil]

Highlights [...] the little kid in the audience who yells "Awww, why don't Popeye eat his spinach an' sock 'im one!?" (I am sure a lot of people were thinking that very question :p ) :sailor:

And the answer, whether realized in 1943 or 6 1/2 decades later (astoundingly, it only hit me at last when that Popeye Show re-creation first aired), remains one of the pop-yourself-in-the-head-I-could've-had-a-V8 nature.

It's right there in the early stage-setting scenes:

Scrap drive = no tin cans = no canned spinach! :eek:

[oceansoul]

I'm not really into "papaj", but this one was really funny.

[Steve Stanch]

You know, there's people who HATE the Dan Gordon cartoons and people who love them. In many ways, Gordon is just a little behind Avery in his experimentations in comic timing..there are always aspects of Gordon's cartoons that don't quite work, but there's also moment of brilliance. Famous is clearly trying to make cartoons in the MGM/ Warners style, though with less directors (and even smaller budgets than Warners had).

It seems that the biggest challenge in these films (and some of the last Fleischer films) is putting Popeye in a role that isn't at all suited to his personality. His lighthartedness is only visible on occasion in these films; he is often reduced to the part of the fall guy- being battered or chased, or in trouble with an authority figure (as in Hungry Goat,Happy Birthdaze, Moving Aweigh, You're a Spa, Mr. Jap, etc).

There's a good amount of experimentation in Goat, from the character reading the opening title (as in Avery's films- but never attempted at Famous before or since) to the characters holding completely still for a handful or strong expressions to some complicated camera moves. I really like Gordon's films and wish he woudl have continued directing at Famous...

[Dave Mackey]

the little kid in the audience who yells "Awww, why don't Popeye eat his spinach an' sock 'im one!?"
That's of course the voice Mercer later used for Felix The Cat. It's also the nebbish announcer in "Popeye Meets Hercules" who says "the all time champ of champions".

[frizfrelengfan]

I find this cartoon to be way too talky, especially in the beginning. It reminds me of some of Columbia's talkfests. The action picks up somewhat at the end.

[Ken Layton]

I like the voice work of Gilbert Mack as the goat.

Of course the opening scene in which the goat speaks to the projectionist (Moving Picture Machine Operator) is a clue that this ain't no ordinary Popeye cartoon.

[Ray Pointer]

When the POPEYE package was first run in Detroit from 1957 to 1964, CKLW in Windsor, Ontario did not, as a rule run the opening credits on the POPEYE cartoons. As a result, we were cheated from seeing the opening title gag. It was not until the POPEYE package returned in 1972 or so on WKBD Channel 50 that I was able to see the cartoons complete with titles, and after eight years, finally SAW this.

I agree that Dan Gordon was probably the best director at Famous in terms of comedic cartoons. Something must have "kicked in" when he left Van Beuren for Fleischer. It is not clear as to WHY he left Famous, but he did.

I understand he spent some time working in industrial films in the Detroit area, working at Jam Handy in Detroit, and also taught at the old Society of Arts and Crafts, which is now The Center for Creative Studies, which came into being in 1970. I also agree that the best Hanna-Barbera stories were by Charlie Shows, Mike Maltise, and Dan Gordon. I'd be curious to know why Dan got out of directing and settled into story work considering what he had done at Famous.

[johnny645]

If I didn't know better I might have thought it was a Tex Avery cartoon. The credit gag reminded me of the opening to "Tortoise Beats Hare" when Bugs got upset by the title of that film. Scenes of the theater's audience add to this effect as well.

[Marty26]

This cartoon actually seems a bit like a mix of Tex Avery and Norm McGabe. The plot is rather McGabe-ish, while the gags (particularly the fourth wall humor) are pure Tex Avery through and through. This cartoon is also notable for being one of those rare instances where Popeye's adversary ends up getting the best of him at the end. In fact, Popeye is really more of a co-star here, with the goat being the cartoon's main star.

[Steve Stanch]

I agree that Dan Gordon was probably the best director at Famous in terms of comedic cartoons. Something must have "kicked in" when he left Van Beuren for Fleischer. It is not clear as to WHY he left Famous, but he did.

I understand he spent some time working in industrial films in the Detroit area, working at Jam Handy in Detroit, and also taught at the old Society of Arts and Crafts, which is now The Center for Creative Studies, which came into being in 1970. I also agree that the best Hanna-Barbera stories were by Charlie Shows, Mike Maltise, and Dan Gordon. I'd be curious to know why Dan got out of directing and settled into story work considering what he had done at Famous.[/QUOTE]

Wow! I didn't know Dan Gordon taught where I now teach! It's now called The College for Creative Studies. He'd be proud that an animation history course is taught that shows some of his cartoons at the school. Thanks Ray... you should come by sometime when you're in the area.....

From what I gathered from Gordon Sheehan (and Myron Waldman, who returned to Famous after his service) Gordon's cartoons were not liked well by Kneitel. The reasons why he stopped directing do remain a little unclear. There were a handful of directors that came and went at Famous in the 40's and into the 50's, as in many of the studios. Gordon also worked on comic books throughout the 40's.

Rosalie Waldman told me possibly why Jim Tyer was fired from Famous though.... she was the head checker at Famous, and Jim, being a joker, would purposely screw up scenes so she would have to come into the animation department to return mistakes. When she would show up, he'd rate her appearance.. and draw pictures of her going through meat grinders! Of course, other than the murderous intent, it was all in good fun- she said he was regarded as one of the best animators in the studio at the time.

One of the sequences that Tyer played this joke on Rosalie with involved Bluto... he drew the whole scene without Bluto's head, thinking it would be sent back (with Rosalie, eyebrows furled bringing it). She didn't catch it (perhaps thinking it was a gag in one of the films) and it went through production that way... even getting shot!

One of the gag drawings she had saved had a roto drawing from 'We're on Ourt Way to Rio' on the back side!

[Studio Toledo]

When the POPEYE package was first run in Detroit from 1957 to 1964, CKLW in Windsor, Ontario did not, as a rule run the opening credits on the POPEYE cartoons. As a result, we were cheated from seeing the opening title gag. It was not until the POPEYE package returned in 1972 or so on WKBD Channel 50 that I was able to see the cartoons complete with titles, and after eight years, finally SAW this.
I feel your pain. Shame when station policies could ruin a cartoon that might do a joke in it's opening title like that.

I agree that Dan Gordon was probably the best director at Famous in terms of comedic cartoons. Something must have "kicked in" when he left Van Beuren for Fleischer. It is not clear as to WHY he left Famous, but he did.

I understand he spent some time working in industrial films in the Detroit area, working at Jam Handy in Detroit, and also taught at the old Society of Arts and Crafts, which is now The Center for Creative Studies, which came into being in 1970. I also agree that the best Hanna-Barbera stories were by Charlie Shows, Mike Maltise, and Dan Gordon. I'd be curious to know why Dan got out of directing and settled into story work considering what he had done at Famous.
I hate to be one of the few who would say these cartoons he did for Famous during those years were pretty good for what it's worth, and I don't mind the sudden change in Popeye's role in these, and kinda favored that fall-guy approach to these where you're given a situation where he doesn't resort to spinach at all. This and the other cartoons during that point of time were quite unique for their time that wasn't seen before or seen.

[Fibber Fox]

It seems that the biggest challenge in these films (and some of the last Fleischer films) is putting Popeye in a role that isn't at all suited to his personality.

It doesn't bother me all that much, if the cartoon's entertaining. It probably bothers the same crowd that says "If Bugs doesn't win, then he's out of character so the cartoon automatically sux."

F. Fox

[J Lee]

Aside from all the fourth wall breaking and the nerve (for 1943) to stick a pose reel into the cartoon twice, the other thing this cartoon showed was how much Famous was chomping at the bit to do straight-out gag cartoons at the time. Remember, for a two year period the studio did nothing but Popeye and Superman shorts, and since you couldn't fit much of any humor into the latter, everything had to be put into the former, which may explain in large part why the WWII Popeye shorts were so wild (once the studio was doing the Lulu and Noveltoons and relocating back to New York, there were more places for the gags to go and the early color Popeye shorts, while still funny, are a lot tamer and not as quickly paced as the B&W Famous efforts, either with Gordon, Sparber or Kneitel at the helm).

[J Lee]

It doesn't bother me all that much, if the cartoon's entertaining. It probably bothers the same crowd that says "If Bugs doesn't win, then he's out of character so the cartoon automatically sux."

F. Fox

The fact that they actually had the Felix-the-cat kid in the audience ask why Popeye didn't eat his spinach and sock him one showed the crew knew there were going to be people in the audience saying the same thing, and they didn't care. "The Hungry Goat" may not be the funniest Popeye ever released, but it was probably the ballsiest one the studio ever shipped out, as far as both experimentation and not caring whether or not the audience would be angry for not having the typical Popeye plot.

[zavkram]

I like the voice work of Gilbert Mack as the goat.

Really? Wow... I could've sworn it was done by Arnold Stang, who would eventually provide the voice of Herman the Mouse in the Noveltoons featuring him, Henry the Rooster and (later) Katnip. The last time I saw this cartoon on TV (which, admittedly was nearly 30 years ago), I thought to myself, "Hey, that goat sounds a lot like Herman!"

The one character I didn't like in this cartoon was the Admiral, for some reason. Maybe it was his voice, I don't know...

I agree that the goat is a funny and dynamic character... it's a shame that Famous didn't revive him later on...

[Ken Layton]

Gilbert Mack and Jackson Beck were both working on the Superman radio show (in New York) in the 1940's.

[Ray Pointer]

Really? Wow... I could've sworn it was done by Arnold Stang, who would eventually provide the voice of Herman the Mouse in the Noveltoons featuring him, Henry the Rooster and (later) Katnip. The last time I saw this cartoon on TV (which, admittedly was nearly 30 years ago), I thought to myself, "Hey, that goat sounds a lot like Herman!"

The one character I didn't like in this cartoon was the Admiral, for some reason. Maybe it was his voice, I don't know...

I agree that the goat is a funny and dynamic character... it's a shame that Famous didn't revive him later on...

Well, it's NOT Arnold Stang! Jack Mercer is the Admiral. Actually, he should have been a Captain. An Admiral is a Navy Administrator not assigned to a battle ship. During war time, as this was, there is also the level of Commador, which is only commissioned during times of war. Naval history aside, BILLY THE KID is an anarchist-type comic character much like WOODY WOODPECKER. I believe he may have been developed by Dan Gordon since his face resembles a goat character in the Van Beuren cartoon he directed, GREEK MIRTHOLOGY. It would seem quite likely that BILLY could have been a new star character that Famous would have owned outright. But they didn't exploit the character, and Gordon left.
I am not sure about Myron Waldman's claim that Seymour Kneitel didn't care for Dan Gordon's cartoons, but it stands to reason that an amount of
"competition" may have existed, but from what I understand, Seymour had no reason to be jealous or insecure due to the presence of Gordon, who was invited to join him and Sparber when Famous was formed.

[craigoman8]

Gilbert Mack and Jackson Beck were both working on the Superman radio show (in New York) in the 1940's.

Yes, and it was interesting when Gil Mack and Jackson Beck were doing "bad guy" voices by 1942 on the radio program, Superman was pronounced by both of them as "Sooperman" and yet shortly after that when Jackson Beck was also narrator, in those moments his Superman was pronounced something like "Si-yuuu-perman". As Bluto, Jackson Beck said "Sooperman" in the Popeye cartoon "She Sick Sailor". -Craig

[Ray Pointer]

Yes, and it was interesting when Gil Mack and Jackson Beck were doing "bad guy" voices by 1942 on the radio program, Superman was pronounced by both of them as "Sooperman" and yet shortly after that when Jackson Beck was also narrator, in those moments his Superman was pronounced something like "Si-yuuu-perman". As Bluto, Jackson Beck said "Sooperman" in the Popeye cartoon "She Sick Sailor". -Craig

Do we hear the New Yawk voision, SOOPAH-MAN?:bugs2:

[Keith Paynter]

I'm going to plead naive on this one, since I had never actually seen this cartoon, until I picked up a 16mm print on ebay earlier this year, as an addition to my collection of wartime shorts. The humour and pace is so different, and Popeye seems to be the supporting player in his own cartoon. It definitely has an Avery-esque fourth wall feel to it.