Want to know how bad "Pre-Hysterical Hare" is...

[The "Chase"]

Then I recommend not clicking on the bottom link. ;)

(That's not here anymore.)

Yeah, a lot of people hate this cartoon, and here's your chance to see it to find out why!

I'll post my thoughts soon...

Edit: Wow, no wonder people hate this one...

Well, it looks like McKimson and Pierce didn't take advantage of The Stone Age. There could have been good gags, but no, they just had to used "gun gags".

Also, Robert musta hated using stock music, because John's music in this and Gopher Broke made decent cartoons below average (and that opening cue didn't help).

Also, why was Dave Berry voicing Elmer in this one? Was Aruther Q. Bryan sick during producation?

And man, that "Caveman Inki" reuse was obiviously bad.

You know, I think the only thing this cartoon had was the backgrounds and the last "gun gag". Other than that, yeesh, I hope you guys have fun tearing this apart.

[Brandon Panther]

Perhaps that cartoon would have been better if the entire cartoon had taken place in the stone-age, instead of having the set-up of Bugs finding a documentary film about it.

I never can figure out WHY the present-day Elmer's rifle is backwards when he finds Bugs in the cave. Add that to the list of gags that weren't thought out well.

I do like Bugs' mocking of Elmer's laugh. It's almost like Mel Blanc was mocking Dave Barry's poor imitation of Elmer, originally voiced by Arthur Q. Bryan.

[oceansoul]

Gush, this was soo painful to sit through. Elmer's voice and the music was bad enough, but Christ, McKimson really sucked donkey balls at this time. Talk, talk, talk, and that's it.

[Speedy Boris]

I usually try to defend McKimson's work, but not in this case. It's a truly badly-executed cartoon, and felt like everyone involved phoned it in. The dialog feels simplistic. The animation isn't anything special. And I agree that it's kind of a waste that they focused on tired gun gags in this prehistoric setting.

People always criticize the Sealy music in this short (granted, with reason), but I don't even think Milt Franklyn music could enhance it.

[Brandon Panther]

Also, why was Dave Berry voicing Elmer in this one? Was Aruther Q. Bryan sick during producation?

Bryan was dead by the time this cartoon was made. The only way he could have "voiced" Elmer was if they dug him up, and brought his corpse into the recording booth, propped him up like a ventriliquist's dummy and....

[Speedy Boris]

Bryan was dead by the time this cartoon was made. The only way he could have "voiced" Elmer was if they dug him up, and brought his corpse into the recording booth, propped him up like a ventriliquist's dummy and.... Actually Bryan died in 1959. His last cartoon was "Person to Bunny" in 1960. This short was released in 1958.

[Brandon Panther]

Actually Bryan died in 1959. His last cartoon was "Person to Bunny" in 1960. This short was released in 1958.
Oh.... I always thought this short was made in the 60s. I guess not. Bryan probably was sick then. :shame:

[Keith Paynter]

Ah, the Sealy Capitol needle drops - the trademark of quality. Such a lackluster short, from story to animation to voicework...I guess the AFM strike affected more than just the music.

[Marty26]

Funny. I was actually thinking of doing a CDOTW for this cartoon. Oh well, since The Chase volunteered, I'll just make this this week's CDOTW (the next one will be a week from today). ;)

I cannot believe this cartoon even exists. Dave Berry does a TERRIBLE job as Elmer Fudd (why is it that even in the "modern-day" scenes he sounds like he's choppily reading from a script?). In fact, I know this sounds kind of mean, but the lone chuckles I got out of this short were with Berry's pitiful attempts at sounding like Bryan. There's basically only one real gag in the entire cartoon (Bugs "inventing the gun"), which isn't even well executed. The whole stone age setting is poorly used (come on, "Sabertooth rabbit"? Is that the best McKimson could come up with???). And even Elmer Fuddstone's potentially-funny "caveman speak" is ruined by Dave Berry's performance. As for the Capitol stock music, I like it in Lassie and The Huckleberry Hound show. But it just doesn't fit Warner Brothers cartoons. And never has it been more poorly synched and out of place than in this cartoon (except may be in Gopher Broke). Also, speaking of "poor synchronization", did anybody else here notice how Bugs's mouth doesn't move when he's talking while running?

I do, however, agree with Brandon Panther about Bugs' mocking laugh possibly being a behind the studio mocking of Berry's performance as Elmer. Which at least makes the otherwise terrible ending more interesting (if also mean-spirited).

[Mr. Semaj]

"It musta been a real stinkaroo to bury it out here in the woods."

My only real defense for this cartoon besides the funny ending is that it has great background art. The texture provided a good match for the prehistoric setting.

I barely paid the music any attention throughout the cartoon, yet the piece selected for the opening credits sounds too Hanna-Barberaish.

And what the hell was up with Elmer's voice? Why couldn't they get Mel Blanc to fill in? Dave Barry's characterization sounded like someone else with a sore throat, and listening to it was just hard to stomach.

The history behind Elmer's voice change is a little hazy. Pre-Hysterical Hare was released in 1958, the year before Arthur Q. Bryan's death. So if his passing came from extended illness, did he retire because of health problems?

[Joe H]

I KNOW I watched this back in the early 90s because I remembered the odd bit with Bugs discovering the film, but it's no wonder I completely forgot about it up until now. It's interesting only in how little sense the setup makes and how much Bugs' mocking laugh sounds seems like Blanc mocking Berry.

[Glowworm]

I saw this one a lot as a child-although scenes involving Elmer's gun backfiring on him were edited out. I also realized-even as a child that Elmer's voice did sound rather different-at least it wasn't Hal Smith-that would have made the cartoon even worse. I didn't cringe at it as a child-but remember I didn't know quality back then.

Also that "borrowed" footage from "Inki and the Minah Bird" was also used in "Wild Wild World"( a much better Caveman cartoon)

Maybe the cartoon would have been a tad bit easier to watch if instead of that terrible John Seely music they used Milt Franklyn. I might even have been able to bear Bill Lava's music. Compared to this wreck, it makes Lava sound like Stalling.

[Mark J]

Whoooooo - what a stinker. That was a mess in every way. I vaguely remember seeing that years ago, it is worse than I thought it would be. I'm not generally a big fan of McKimson Bugs or any Bugs after about 1957, but this must be one of the all time top 5 worst Bugs. The music kills the flow, Elmer's voice is disturbing, the story goes nowhere, there are no decent gags, and the Caveman Inki scenes are really out of place - Chuck Jones good 1940's animation makes the lame animation here look even worse.

[oceansoul]

Funny. I was actually thinking of doing a CDOTW for this cartoon. Oh well, since The Chase volunteered, I'll just make this this week's CDOTW (the next one will be a week from today). ;)

I cannot believe this cartoon even exists. Dave Berry does a TERRIBLE job as Elmer Fudd (why is it that even in the "modern-day" scenes he sounds like he's choppily reading from a script?). In fact, I know this sounds kind of mean, but the lone chuckles I got out of this short were with Berry's pitiful attempts at sounding like Bryan. There's basically only one real gag in the entire cartoon (Bugs "inventing the gun"), which isn't even well executed. The whole stone age setting is poorly used (come on, "Sabertooth rabbit"? Is that the best McKimson could come up with???). And even Elmer Fuddstone's potentially-funny "caveman speak" is ruined by Dave Berry's performance. As for the Capitol stock music, I like it in Lassie and The Huckleberry Hound show. But it just doesn't fit Warner Brothers cartoons. And never has it been more poorly synched and out of place than in this cartoon (except may be in Gopher Broke). Also, speaking of "poor synchronization", did anybody else here notice how Bugs's mouth doesn't move when he's talking while running?

I do, however, agree with Brandon Panther about Bugs' mocking laugh possibly being a behind the studio mocking of Berry's performance as Elmer. Which at least makes the otherwise terrible ending more interesting (if also mean-spirited).

Man, could you ever stop making discussions about bad cartoons? Really not an attractive thing for most of us..:shame:

[Tim Lones]

Man, could you ever stop making discussions about bad cartoons? Really not an attractive thing for most of us..:shame:

Oh, I don't know..Everybody else seems to be enjoying the discussion..If we cant discuss the less than stellar points of certain cartoons then what are we here for?..

[oceansoul]

Oh, I don't know..Everybody else seems to be enjoying the discussion..If we cant discuss the less than stellar points of certain cartoons then what are we here for?..

I didn't say less than stellar, but BAD. Bad in a post-60 WB way.

[angilbas]

On first view this cartoon could be appreciated as an atypical Bugs-Elmer encounter, thanks to a unique setting, a different voice, and a full head of hair on Fuddstone. When Fuddstone's face changes color after his mishap with the blowpipe and stone (literally the best gag), we hear somewhat similar music to that which used to accompany the unfurling of the NBC "color program" peacock (not in the 1950s, though). The art is pleasing thanks to Robert Gribbroek (layouts) and William Butler (backgrounds).

But I agree with others on this thread that the prehistoric gun gags aren't good. Fuddstone is so stupid that it's irrational (even by 'toon standards) for him to invent anything, let alone gunpowder. There are few laughs and no battle of wits.


-Tony

[larriva9/11]

When Fuddstone's face changes color after his mishap with the blowpipe and stone (literally the best gag), we hear the same music that used to accompany the unfurling of the NBC peacock ("The following program is brought to you in living color...").

That's my favourite bit, too--though I think the NBC living-color resemblance was purely coincidental; but still, it's a case where the inherent "Seely surrealism" actually enhances rather than detracts from the gag...

[Mark J]

That's my favourite bit, too--though I think the NBC living-color resemblance was purely coincidental; but still, it's a case where the inherent "Seely surrealism" actually enhances rather than detracts from the gag...

It would have to be coincidental - NBC did not broadcast 'in living color' until the mid 1960's.

[Tim Lones]

I didn't say less than stellar, but BAD. Bad in a post-60 WB way.

I was just making a generalized statement..Not specifically about the cartoon in question..But I agree it is bad, especially as others have said, the awful Fudd voice..

[Glowworm]

It would have been funnier if they added some dinosaurs to the cartoon. Granted, dinosaurs WERE not around at the same time as cavemen-but it would have been better.

[Fibber Fox]

When Fuddstone's face changes color after his mishap with the blowpipe and stone (literally the best gag), we hear the same music that used to accompany the unfurling of the NBC peacock ("The following program is brought to you in living color...").

Uh, no. It's not the same music. Here's what NBC was using at the time:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mfaoPFePRDQ&feature=related

It was later, the network used the Laramie peacock with the harp open.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ie6PmDiL1s4&feature=related
The Seely stock music isn't the same as that one, either.

Bill Loose's Eccentic Comedy is one of the music beds used in this one. That kinda sums up the whole cartoon. Though when the initial dino shots (McKimson at least tries to make them interesting by shooting with a lower POV) come on, Seely's stock music works. But when at 4:59 when Eccentic Comedy is in the background, I expect Yogi Bear to walk into the scene. Too bad he didn't. It might have livened the cartoon.

If a cartoon's this talky, it'd better have funny dialogue. And it doesn't. It's like Tedd Pierce came up with the idea for it, McKimson said "What do we do with Bugs and Elmer now?" and Tedd said "I'll think about it later. I hear a lonely jar of olives plaintiffly calling me." And later never came.

Dave Barry is so lame in this, he even doesn't transpose all his 'r's into 'w's. And McKimson, or whoever was directing the dialogue, either didn't notice or didn't care.

F. Fox

[Marty26]

Actually, there WERE dinosaurs... in that reused Caveman Inki footage. :rolleyes:

I'm guessing this was just an economy cartoon. One essentially made because WB had a contractual obligation to get a certain number of Bugs Bunny cartoons out in 1958, and they didn't really have any ideas so they slapped this one together in about 20 minutes tops, yawned, and shoved it out the door. This seems to have been the case with several of the Seely-scored 1958 cartoons (Gopher Broke and A Bird In A Bonnet for example - although the latter is actually a pretty decent The Red Balloon parody).

I actually feel kind of sorry for Dave Berry. He probably had to come in at the last minute to fill Arthur Q. Bryan's shoes, so he never really had a chance to "get the Elmer voice" right or even properly memorize his lines (he sounds so unnatural and recited here).

[Dave Mackey]

Actually, there WERE dinosaurs... in that reused Caveman Inki footage. :rolleyes:

I'm guessing this was just an economy cartoon. One essentially made because WB had a contractual obligation to get a certain number of Bugs Bunny cartoons out in 1958, and they didn't really have any ideas so they slapped this one together in about 20 minutes tops, yawned, and shoved it out the door. This seems to have been the case with several of the Seely-scored 1958 cartoons (Gopher Broke and A Bird In A Bonnet for example - although the latter is actually a pretty decent The Red Balloon parody).

WB, probably anticipating the unavailability of Franklyn, probably anticipated which cartoons really didn't need to be scored note for note, and put those in the pipeline ahead of the jobs which would need a little more musical TLC. They were probably thinking "what would be the easiest stories to put over with stock music", and it seems there's a lot of influence from the earliest Hanna-Barbera cartoons ("Ruff and Reddy") and the Gumby films that were using the same exact music. So that's why the six Seely films seem so... TV-like, and why the breakdown was one Bugs, one Tweety, one Goofy Gophers, one Foggy, and two Road Runners (odd precursors to Larriva's eleven).

Even so, consider that one of the first cartoons back from the strike was the brilliant "Baton Bunny", a job requiring no composing, and which Jones could have pre-timed to any recording of "Morning, Noon and Night in Vienna" lying around (even a print of "Kiddie Koncert" which used the same music). Franklyn and the orchestra probably just came in one morning, maybe ran through it once (you had to be a great sight reader to play in that orchestra), and then recorded it.

[Marty26]

The first post-Seely WB cartoon was Cat Feud, right? That was also a brilliant cartoon (and the last appearance of Claude Cat, Marc Antony, and Pussyfoot).

[Marty26]

Man, could you ever stop making discussions about bad cartoons? Really not an attractive thing for most of us..:shame:

When's the last time I made one about a bad cartoon, though?

[Glowworm]

Actually, there WERE dinosaurs... in that reused Caveman Inki footage. :rolleyes:


I'm aware of that-I meant dinosaurs BESIDES that stock footage.

[oceansoul]

When's the last time I made one about a bad cartoon, though?

Buddy. :cool:

Not exactly a cartoon, but a character, but the result is same. :tweety:

[Marty26]

Buddy. :cool:

Not exactly a cartoon, but a character, but the result is same. :tweety:

Well, that was due to popular demand, so I have a good excuse :tweety: :

http://forums.goldenagecartoons.com/showthread.php?t=11550&highlight=Buddy

[Marty26]

I just can't help thinking this cartoon would've been so much better if it was directed at least one year prior and handled by Chuck Jones or Friz Freleng (not to be the next to rail on McKimson or anything). The whole idea of Elmer hunting Bugs in a "prehistorical" environment had so much potential. But it was completely wasted in this cartoon, probably due to circumstances that were at least partially beyond the studio's control.

[Sogturtle]

The blowpipe gag is indeed good!:D Whereas McKimson's timing of the gun gags is just too-bloomin' slow...:rolleyes:

And actually the CONCEPT of the "sabre-toothed rabbit" had potential as a great gag ifffff McKimson and Pierce had done the logical thing and made the "sabre-toothed rabbit" (Bugs) extremely ferocious (like the tiger of the same name) and maul the heck out of Elmer whenever face-to-face:D. Bugs should always outsmart Elmer yes, but in this prehistoric setting he should hunt and maul Fudd royally at every opportunity,, giving Elmer real REASON to fear him and want him dead.

And short of completely rewriting the cartoon, IF McKimson had vastly speeded up the gun gags execution to about double (ala Tex Avery) then they would SEEM a lot funnier (even though he'd have to repeat them due to the altered timing). [Sadly, this is evidently one of the McKimson cartoons where Friz and Chuck failed to help Bob "re-gag" it]

The music is indeed dreadful, but we have to cut Bob slack on that as he had zero control over it (assign ultimate blame to the striking musicians).

Whereas the hiring of Dave Barry and letting him complete the dialogue was in McKimson's control. Instead of that Bob should've done the shrewd thing and deleted ALL of the Fudd dialogue and substituted a bunch of Blanc-supplied "prehistoric grunts" (and had comical subtitles) and then punctuated that for laughs by pulling Arthur Q. Bryan's Fudd laugh up out of the archives at the end of a "bright idea" grunting from Elmer. :p

[Vdubdavid]

The only reason the blowpipe gag is any good is because it's lifted wholsale from 1950's "Bushy Hare", made when everyone still seemed to want to make every short worthwhile.

Just as a quick aside, how is "A Bird in a Bonnet" a takeoff on "The Red Balloon"? I've seen that film and don't see the connection.

[larriva9/11]

The only reason the blowpipe gag is any good is because it's lifted wholsale from 1950's "Bushy Hare", made when everyone still seemed to want to make every short worthwhile.

Actually, it's more deadpan bizarre than the "Bushy Hare" rendition, with Elmer turning plaid and polka-dotted while John Seely trills away overhead...

[Marty26]

The only reason the blowpipe gag is any good is because it's lifted wholsale from 1950's "Bushy Hare", made when everyone still seemed to want to make every short worthwhile.

Just as a quick aside, how is "A Bird in a Bonnet" a takeoff on "The Red Balloon"? I've seen that film and don't see the connection.

It's not a blatant rip-off or anything. But the plot seems to be similarly structured, and it has that same French overtone.

[Thad]

This is probably the worst short done by the studio in the classic era. No redeemability whatsoever. (I do wonder what Soggy's second choice for a truly horrible Bugs cartoon is. I can name at least six.) Add insult to injury that this could have been a really great cartoon ten years earlier had it been done by the Freleng-Pierce team.

Keep in mind that in spite of this awful rendition of Elmer Fudd, Dave Barry was a talented and funny guy. ("Beinstock!!!")

[Fibber Fox]

This is probably the worst short done by the studio in the classic era. No redeemability whatsoever. (I do wonder what Soggy's second choice for a truly horrible Bugs cartoon is. I can name at least six.)

That hat one comes to mind. I still don't understand why anyone thought it'd be funny.

This whole things seems rushed. It's like someone realised they were one Bugs short of the quota, then Jones and Freleng ran away screaming at the prospect of a last-minute cartoon so McKimson got to stuck with it.

The movie-reel format just screams of cheater, but it seems McKimson decided instead of re-using a lot of old animation, he'd just re-use some jokes.

Keep in mind that in spite of this awful rendition of Elmer Fudd, Dave Barry was a talented and funny guy. ("Beinstock!!!")

Was that him in Some Like it Hot? How about that.

Unfortunately, in this one, Dave sounds like he's a guy who's double-parked and wants to get it over in one take so he can run outside to make sure he doesn't have a ticket.

F. Fox.

[Sogturtle]

That hat one comes to mind. I still don't understand why anyone thought it'd be funny.

This whole things seems rushed. It's like someone realised they were one Bugs short of the quota, then Jones and Freleng ran away screaming at the prospect of a last-minute cartoon so McKimson got to stuck with it.

The movie-reel format just screams of cheater, but it seems McKimson decided instead of re-using a lot of old animation, he'd just re-use some jokes.

Was that him in Some Like it Hot? How about that.

Unfortunately, in this one, Dave sounds like he's a guy who's double-parked and wants to get it over in one take so he can run outside to make sure he doesn't have a ticket.

F. Fox.

I agree that Dave Barry was a a very fine and funny guy AND quite a good impressionist. BUT when it came to his doing impressions of great cartoon-character voices he came up with some that are just atrocious beyond words (Elmer here in "Pre-Hysterical Hare" and then Barry's largely uncredited work on Little Golden Records). Thankfully for his career he was only ever credited on one LGR that I know about.

The "hat" cartoon is "Bugs Bonnets", but hey! it makes me laugh:p (and I actually know some people who QUOTE it!).

And since Thad was curious about it, for the record the one other truly unspeakably-bad Bugs in MY book is "Dr. Devil And Mr. Hare", a complete waste of Bugs, the Tasmanian Devil and seven minutes of anyone's life when they watch it:D . Give me ANY (and I mean ANY) other Bugs Bunny or any other Warner Bros. cartoon over either of these two any day of the week. [I understand the army will be substituting showing of these two cartoons in place of water-boarding;) ].

[oceansoul]

This is probably the worst short done by the studio in the classic era. No redeemability whatsoever. (I do wonder what Soggy's second choice for a truly horrible Bugs cartoon is. I can name at least six.) Add insult to injury that this could have been a really great cartoon ten years earlier had it been done by the Freleng-Pierce team.

Keep in mind that in spite of this awful rendition of Elmer Fudd, Dave Barry was a talented and funny guy. ("Beinstock!!!")

Well, you didn't ask me, but here is my rotten collection disc with the 15 worst Bugs (IMO):

Devil's Feud Cake
Pre-Hysterical Hare
Dr. Devil and Mr. Hare
False Hare
Now Hare This
The Iceman Ducketh
Rabbit Rampage
Mad as Mars Hare
Dumb Patrol
Shiskabugs
Hare-Breadth Hurry
Rabbit's Feat
Rabbit Romeo
A Witch's Tangled Hare
Elmer's Pet Rabbit

Honorable mentions: BB Nips the Nips, Wacky Wabbit, Knights Must Fall, French Rarebit, Bedevilled Rabbit, Bill of Hare, Yankee Doodle Bugs, To Hare is Human, Hyde and Hare, Napoleon Bunny-part and the rest of the cheaters.

[nickramer]

Well, you didn't ask me, but here is my rotten collection disc with the 15 worst Bugs (IMO):

Devil's Feud Cake
Pre-Hysterical Hare
Dr. Devil and Mr. Hare
False Hare
Now Hare This
The Iceman Ducketh
Rabbit Rampage
Mad as Mars Hare
Dumb Patrol
Shiskabugs
Hare-Breadth Hurry
Rabbit's Feat
Rabbit Romeo
A Witch's Tangled Hare
Elmer's Pet Rabbit

Honorable mentions: BB Nips the Nips, Wacky Wabbit, Knights Must Fall, French Rarebit, Bedevilled Rabbit, Bill of Hare, Yankee Doodle Bugs, To Hare is Human, Hyde and Hare, Napoleon Bunny-part and the rest of the cheaters.
Boy, that's cold and harsh.

[Marty26]

I definitely can't say I agree with your Honorable Mentions. Although I do agree with your Big-15 except may be Rabbit Rampage (I like that cartoon).

[J Lee]

The Barry/Fudd voice would have been tolerable if McKimson had gone back in when Bryan was available later and dubbed his voice in for the lines during the modern portion of the cartoon. At least then Barry's different tones could have been justified as being "Caveman Elmer" and not the Fudd of the Future.

Not in my Bottom 5 of Bugs cartoons, but definitely in the Bottom 10. McKimson's cartoons really took a downturn in 1958, to the point that any decent short out of his unit from then on was something of a surprise (though to be fair, the Jones and Freleng units would go into freefall and end up with about the same low batting average as Bob's efforts by 1962).

[Speedy Boris]

Devil's Feud Cake
Pre-Hysterical Hare
Dr. Devil and Mr. Hare
False Hare
Now Hare This
The Iceman Ducketh
Rabbit Rampage
Mad as Mars Hare
Dumb Patrol
Shiskabugs
Hare-Breadth Hurry
Rabbit's Feat
Rabbit Romeo
A Witch's Tangled Hare
Elmer's Pet Rabbit

Honorable mentions: BB Nips the Nips, Wacky Wabbit, Knights Must Fall, French Rarebit, Bedevilled Rabbit, Bill of Hare, Yankee Doodle Bugs, To Hare is Human, Hyde and Hare, Napoleon Bunny-part and the rest of the cheaters. "Bill of Hare" is my second favorite Taz cartoon, after "Devil May Hare" of course. There were a lot of clever bits Bugs pulls on Taz in that one, almost like he was a magician. And it has one of my favorite Bugs one-liners ever.

"Hyde and Hare" is classic.

And I know I said this previously, but I love "Knights Must Fall". For a gag-based outing, it has the razor-sharp timing needed, and of which Freleng often excelled.

I do agree on most of your worsts, though. Though I may have to re-watch "Pet Rabbit"- I didn't experience an adverse reaction to it when I first saw it, but it has been a while.

[StillHowardFein]

I never can figure out WHY the present-day Elmer's rifle is backwards when he finds Bugs in the cave.

Maybe to show his incompetence? It seems fitting that Elmer would get so flustered and excited at having a clear shot at Bugs that he would forget to hold his rifle the right way.

I have to go against popular opinion and say I sort of like PRE-HYSTERICAL HARE:eek: , and that the Seely score actually enhances the surreal atmosphere. Blanc incorporates an amusing 'saber-toothed' lisp into prehistoric Bugs.

My first exposure to this short was during my college years when, in my usual Saturday AM stupor, I stumbled onto it while channel flipping. Upon hearing music normally used in a Yogi, Huck or Meeces episode (from Elmer being blown into a tree by the gunpowder through Bugs' assembling his 'squirreling rifle'), I thought it was a strange dream about seeing Bugs Bunny in an early H-B cartoon.;)

Agree that Dave Barry does not do a good job as Elmer; for the longest time I thought that was Daws Butler. But then, very few voice artists can do Elmer very well. Mel Blanc, Hal Smith and Greg Burson couldn't. Jeff Bergman was pretty good in BOX OFFICE BUNNY. Billy West wasn't half bad in BACK IN ACTION.

Will Friedwald erroneously wrote that Bryan had died a year before this cartoon was recorded.:mad: He would actually voice Elmer after its release, in MUTT IN A RUT and PEOPLE ARE BUNNY. Bryan does sound decidedly 'off' in both. His illness must have hit rather quickly, because a mere year before PRE-HYSTERICAL, he turned in a wonderful performance in WHAT'S OPERA DOC.

But PRE-HYSTERICAL is hampered by McKimson's plodding direction and Pierce's laconic script- factors that would increasingly plague both of them after the 1955 studio reopening.

[Mr. Semaj]

The other thing is that once the story focuses on Prehistoric Bugs and Elmer, it seems to forget that it is a documentary film about prehistoric life.

McKimson and Pierce would do a better caveman cartoon, Wild Wild Life, even though the idea bore similarities to Tex Avery's Texas Badman, and that by 1960, Hanna-Barbera was developing their own caveman project, which would later become The Flintstones.

[Marty26]

Maybe to show his incompetence? It seems fitting that Elmer would get so flustered and excited at having a clear shot at Bugs that he would forget to hold his rifle the right way.

I have to go against popular opinion and say I sort of like PRE-HYSTERICAL HARE:eek: , and that the Seely score actually enhances the surreal atmosphere. Blanc incorporates an amusing 'saber-toothed' lisp into prehistoric Bugs.

My first exposure to this short was during my college years when, in my usual Saturday AM stupor, I stumbled onto it while channel flipping. Upon hearing music normally used in a Yogi, Huck or Meeces episode (from Elmer being blown into a tree by the gunpowder through Bugs' assembling his 'squirreling rifle'), I thought it was a strange dream about seeing Bugs Bunny in an early H-B cartoon.;)

Agree that Dave Barry does not do a good job as Elmer; for the longest time I thought that was Daws Butler. But then, very few voice artists can do Elmer very well. Mel Blanc, Hal Smith and Greg Burson couldn't. Jeff Bergman was pretty good in BOX OFFICE BUNNY. Billy West wasn't half bad in BACK IN ACTION.

Will Friedwald erroneously wrote that Bryan had died a year before this cartoon was recorded.:mad: He would actually voice Elmer after its release, in MUTT IN A RUT and PEOPLE ARE BUNNY. Bryan does sound decidedly 'off' in both. His illness must have hit rather quickly, because a mere year before PRE-HYSTERICAL, he turned in a wonderful performance in WHAT'S OPERA DOC.

But PRE-HYSTERICAL is hampered by McKimson's plodding direction and Pierce's laconic script- factors that would increasingly plague both of them after the 1955 studio reopening.

You mean "Person To Bunny." :)

[Marty26]

The other thing is that once the story focuses on Prehistoric Bugs and Elmer, it seems to forget that it is a documentary film about prehistoric life.


Bugs even does some of his own narrations later on, Mystery Science Theater 3000 style (except predating MST3K by about 30 years).

[zavkram]

When Fuddstone's face changes color after his mishap with the blowpipe and stone (literally the best gag), we hear the same music that used to accompany the unfurling of the NBC peacock ("The following program is brought to you in living color...").

Just for the record, that theme music was actually composed by Carlos Surinach (http://www.schirmer.com/default.aspx?TabId=2419&State_2872=2&ComposerId_2872=1543) for NBC.

[angilbas]

In the fall of 1957, when Pre-Hysterical Hare was most likely in production, North America was in the midst of its second-worst flu outbreak of the past century (there has not been a season as bad since then). Bryan may have missed his Fudd role because of the flu or a complication which arose from it.

Another feature of the flu is that many who come down with it feel "sub-par" for weeks after the fever breaks. McKimson's lacklustre direction may have been due to post-illness fatigue. It looks like his animators were also struggling with the dregs of that virus, with no extra effort being lavished on Fuddstone or his potential prey.

The Asian Flu may have hastened the decline of Termite Terrace, with animators too tired to do more than routine work, and directors too weary to pressure them. By the time folks recovered, they may have faced another outbreak -- of cost-cutting.


-Tony

[The "Chase"]

In the fall of 1957, when Pre-Hysterical Hare was most likely in production, North America was in the midst of its second-worst flu outbreak of the past century (there has not been a season as bad since then). Bryan may have missed his Fudd role because of the flu or a complication which arose from it.

Another feature of the flu is that many who come down with it feel "sub-par" for weeks after the fever breaks. McKimson's lacklustre direction may have been due to post-illness fatigue. It looks like his animators were also struggling with the dregs of that virus, with no extra effort being lavished on Fuddstone or his potential prey.

The Asian Flu may have hastened the decline of Termite Terrace, with animators too tired to do more than routine work, and directors too weary to pressure them. By the time folks recovered, they may have faced another outbreak -- of cost-cutting.


-Tony

Interesing.

Say angilas, how about some examples of this flu outbreak. Like, did everyone at the lot had it? Which animotirs suffered this (I think the only one who suffered this was McKimson's unit)?

[A. Flea]

You know when elmer gets shot in the mouth with an apple, I think it would be funnier if he got shot in the balls.

[angilbas]

Interesting.

Say angilbas, how about some examples of this flu outbreak. Like, did everyone at the lot had it? Which animators suffered this (I think the only one who suffered this was McKimson's unit)?

I can only speculate as to what was going on at Termite Terrace during its final years. But the 1957-8 flu season was bad enough so that the studio must have been affected in some way. The worst flu seasons most of us can remember were no match for what struck 51 years ago.

This Homeland Security site (http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/ops/hsc-scen-3_pandemic-influenza.htm) has an excellent synopsis of flu pandemics.


-Tony

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Another feature of the flu is that many who come down with it feel "sub-par" for weeks after the fever breaks. McKimson's lacklustre direction may have been due to post-illness fatigue. It looks like his animators were also struggling with the dregs of that virus, with no extra effort being lavished on Fuddstone or his potential prey.
That's a really interesting theory. However, if it's true, then McKimson must have gotten the flu back in the early fifties, and he suffered it's ill effects until 1969 -- since his direction had been lackluster for over a decade.

[Mark J]

This flu theory is ridiculous. You don't even know the month this cartoon was actually being created, we only have a release date. Just because influenza rates were high in North America in that year does not mean everyone in the USA had the flu at the same time. Even in 1918 a lot of Americans were not affected by influenza. You would have to find an interview with McKimson or someone known to have worked on the toon where they specifically remembered this happening or some evidence in company records of the Warner cartoon staff being devestated by flu. As JJ says above, if your theory is true McKimson must have had the flu from 1953 to 1969 because he made a load of awful toons including some equal to or worse than this.

[Mr. Semaj]

I thought 1963 was a particularly strong year for McKimson.

This is the first I'm hearing of any flu theories.

[Matt the Y]

This flu theory is ridiculous. You don't even know the month this cartoon was actually being created, we only have a release date. Just because influenza rates were high in North America in that year does not mean everyone in the USA had the flu at the same time. Even in 1918 a lot of Americans were not affected by influenza. You would have to find an interview with McKimson or someone known to have worked on the toon where they specifically remembered this happening or some evidence in company records of the Warner cartoon staff being devestated by flu. As JJ says above, if your theory is true McKimson must have had the flu from 1953 to 1969 because he made a load of awful toons including some equal to or worse than this.

Sorry but I'd also have to agree that the theory of "Having the flu produces lackluster cartoons" is more than a little far-fetched. Producing cartoons that entertain and are of a steady and "well-gagged" pace is part of a healthy creative process, not a healthy physical process.

[Speedy Boris]

I thought 1963 was a particularly strong year for McKimson. Really? The only two I like that year were "Banty Raids" and "The Million Hare".

[oceansoul]

Really? The only two I like that year were "Banty Raids" and "The Million Hare".

And even these ones are not very good. :p

[Speedy Boris]

And even these ones are not very good. :p Well yeah, compared to some of his earlier achievements with those characters. But for '63 (not a very good year for WB), they're entertaining.

[angilbas]

I think the flu theory is worth talking about because the 1957 virus was the nastiest since 1918, and most of the McKimson cartoons that were released around a year after the epidemic peaked were below average even for his post-3D shutdown era. Viral infections like flu can sap a person's mind and make creativity more difficult. On that level, McKimson certainly struggled with Dog Tales. Weasel While You Work was a rebound thanks to the Michael Maltese dialogue, but the direction should have been stronger -- Foggy sounds obnoxious when he repeatedly yells "I'm flyin'!" and in a later conversation with the weasel it's obvious that both characters were voiced by the same man. We've talked about Pre-Hysterical Hare, which was followed by Gopher Broke. Their director hit a bottom with these cartoons for some reason.

McKimson fared better with most of his 1959 releases, especially The Mouse That Jack Built and People Are Bunny.


-Tony

[oceansoul]

My theory is that 1956-1957 and early-58 were producing very strong McKimson cartoons.

I dare to say his cartoons in this era was much much stronger from him, than what we have seen between 1951 and 1954 under his name.

The filmography is pretty impressive, even if the cartoons are not masterpieces. Just to name a few: High and Flighty, Tabasco Road, Don't Axe Me, Boston Quackie, Ducking the Devil, Tortilla Flaps, Honey-Mousers, Fox Terror.

Then in 1958 we saw the complete meltdown. I think McKimson should have retired from directing at this time, or either his unit should have been disbanded to help the others' cost a little.

[Mr. Jinks]

You know when elmer gets shot in the mouth with an apple, I think it would be funnier if he got shot in the balls.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

[Mr. Jinks]

OK...I just saw it
Seems like an H-B cartoon...very slow pacing

The gun gag at the end was funny and the expression on Elmer Fuddstone's face when he first laughed was priceless

I think the gun gag was the payoff to the entire cartoon.

[Marty26]

OK...I just saw it
Seems like an H-B cartoon...very slow pacing

The gun gag at the end was funny and the expression on Elmer Fuddstone's face when he first laughed was priceless

I think the gun gag was the payoff to the entire cartoon.

No offense, but I don't see how anybody who's seen even three Bugs Bunny cartoons could find the gun gag anything but cliche.

[Speedy Boris]

So speaking of Seely shorts, it was my first time seeing A Bird in a Bonnet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdrjysEhmss). While better than Pre-Hysterical Hare, this cartoon only further proves how much Stalling and Franklyn added to the LT/MM cartoons; without their expertise, this short feels like a '60s Hanna Barbera series, only better animated. That's not to say the music itself was bad (heck, I love a lot of music from HB cartoons), but totally wrong for the cartoon and the gags they failed to accentuate.

[The "Chase"]

So speaking of Seely shorts, it was my first time seeing A Bird in a Bonnet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdrjysEhmss). While better than Pre-Hysterical Hare, this cartoon only further proves how much Stalling and Franklyn added to the LT/MM cartoons; without their expertise, this short feels like a '60s Hanna Barbera series, only better animated. That's not to say the music itself was bad (heck, I love a lot of music from HB cartoons), but totally wrong for the cartoon and the gags they failed to accentuate.

First of all, thanks for finding that for us Speedy. Now, here's a few comments on this.

Yeah, John's music didn't fit at all in a Tweety and Sylvester cartoon. But I will admit a few of the cues made some scenes unintenionaly funny.

As for the cartoon itself, it's another typical Tweety cartoon, but hey, there's some funny gags in this one thanks to the drawings and Friz's timing (like the poiceman reaction and Sylvester reaction that truck, and that big guy hat gag was fine, along with that manhole cameo). But, a typical story, a unremarkable ending and John's music drags this down for me.

[Mr. Semaj]

So speaking of Seely shorts, it was my first time seeing A Bird in a Bonnet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdrjysEhmss). While better than Pre-Hysterical Hare, this cartoon only further proves how much Stalling and Franklyn added to the LT/MM cartoons; without their expertise, this short feels like a '60s Hanna Barbera series, only better animated. That's not to say the music itself was bad (heck, I love a lot of music from HB cartoons), but totally wrong for the cartoon and the gags they failed to accentuate.

And what a strange coincidence that such a cartoon would include an unseen cameo of Ed Norton!

[Matt the Y]

And what a strange coincidence that such a cartoon would include an unseen cameo of Ed Norton!

Voiced by Daws Butler, no less!

[larriva9/11]

Well, Friz's approach to Seely is "breezier" than McKimson's leaden approach--not as creative (or knowingly ironic?) as Chuck's approach, though...

One other (mitigating?) thing which may reflect a Friz response to Seely is that it might be the most "UPA Granny"-focussed of the T+S shorts.

[Marty26]

As far as I recall, the only Jones cartoons to use the Seely stock music are Hip Hip Hurry and Hook Line And Stinker. Both of which are Wile E. Coyote/Roadrunner cartoons (which, if you ask me, is about the last series you'd expect to hear the Capitol Records stock music in). Cat Feud, also directed by Jones, was I believe the first cartoon to mark the return of Milt Franklyn.

[J Lee]

As far as I recall, the only Jones cartoons to use the Seely stock music are Hip Hip Hurry and Hook Line And Stinker. Both of which are Wile E. Coyote/Roadrunner cartoons (which, if you ask me, is about the last series you'd expect to hear the Capitol Records stock music in). Cat Feud, also directed by Jones, was I believe the first cartoon to mark the return of Milt Franklyn.

Yep, the last cartoon release of '58 was the first one back with full orchestration. On the other end, Friz was lucky they were able to get the recording session in for "Knighty Knight, Bugs", the last short released before the musicians' strike. If that one had come out with a Seely score, odds are pretty good Bugs wouldn't have won the Oscar (which in turn would have ruined the opening lines 18 months later for "The Bugs Bunny Show").

[The "Chase"]

Yep, the last cartoon release of '58 was the first one back with full orchestration. On the other end, Friz was lucky they were able to get the recording session in for "Knighty Knight, Bugs", the last short released before the musicians' strike. If that one had come out with a Seely score, odds are pretty good Bugs wouldn't have won the Oscar (which in turn would have ruined the opening lines 18 months later for "The Bugs Bunny Show").

And "Who Bopped Bugs Bunny" would probably never happen (seriously).

[Marty26]

First of all, thanks for finding that for us Speedy. Now, here's a few comments on this.

Yeah, John's music didn't fit at all in a Tweety and Sylvester cartoon. But I will admit a few of the cues made some scenes unintenionaly funny.

As for the cartoon itself, it's another typical Tweety cartoon, but hey, there's some funny gags in this one thanks to the drawings and Friz's timing (like the poiceman reaction and Sylvester reaction that truck, and that big guy hat gag was fine, along with that manhole cameo). But, a typical story, a unremarkable ending and John's music drags this down for me.

Interestingly, Seely's music seems to be aurally amplified a little in this cartoon. I'm guessing it was Freleng's (actually, WB's) attempt to produce at least one cartoon that put the Seely stock music to good use. Unfortunately, poorly timed musical cues + a rather unremarkable cartoon overall (despite that funny Ed Norton cameo) = mission failed.

I have a question about Weasel While You Work, by the way. Did Franklyn score anything in that cartoon? Because Foggy's Camptown Races theme song is present and appropriately wintry. And I doubt the Capitol Records stock tapes even had that song on them (let alone the more Christmasy versions in that cartoon).

[Speedy Boris]

I have a question about Weasel While You Work, by the way. Did Franklyn score anything in that cartoon? Because Foggy's Camptown Races theme song is present and appropriately wintry. And I doubt the Capitol Records stock tapes even had that song on them (let alone the more Christmasy versions in that cartoon). Wasn't that just played on an organ? I wouldn't be surprised if Seely just played that himself, as it didn't require a full orchestra. Just a guess, though.

[larriva9/11]

As far as I recall, the only Jones cartoons to use the Seely stock music are Hip Hip Hurry and Hook Line And Stinker. Both of which are Wile E. Coyote/Roadrunner cartoons (which, if you ask me, is about the last series you'd expect to hear the Capitol Records stock music in).

And he was probably conscious of the fact, and used it as a cue to make the most of it. (I suppose it was Jones' decision to only do RR/WEC during the Seely period?)

[J Lee]

And he was probably conscious of the fact, and used it as a cue to make the most of it. (I suppose it was Jones' decision to only do RR/WEC during the Seely period?)

If you go look at the production numbers for the 1958 cartoons (http://www.davemackey.com/animation/wb/1958.html) on Dave Mackey's site, "Cat Feud" was held back -- I mean really held back, to the point that cartoons with similar production numbers were already coming out a year earlier. So my guess is they kept it on ice until they could get full orchestration, because it was a cartoon that needed it, while they figured they could get away more with releasing a couple of RR cartoons with Seely's scores (plus by 1958 the RR, Bugs Bunny and the Tweety series were the most popular with theatrical bookers, so they had to put something out on the market to meet those demands, musicans' strike or not. A one-shot cartoon could be held back a lot longer).

[Marty26]

If that's the case, it's a wonder there were no Speedy Gonzales cartoons released with the John Seely score (just imagine...).

[Fibber Fox]

If that's the case, it's a wonder there were no Speedy Gonzales cartoons released with the John Seely score (just imagine...).

I imagine Seely had some Mexican cues on one of the Capitol albums. But he might end up using the same chase cues on the HB cartoons.

F. Fox