Semi-OT: Who Framed Roger Rabbit 20th anniversary tribute thread

[John Pannozzi]

This summer marks the 20th anniversary of the legendary film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit". This thread is for celebrating and remembering this seminal film. To start, here's a series of old magazines articles about the making of the film: http://johnpannozzi.blogspot.com/2008/07/20-years-of-who-framed-roger-rabbit.html

[tristar]

This is one of my all time favourites! Here is a classic scene where donald shouts ouy a racist comment at Daffy http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=1b_88kWrA70

[Dell Comics Fan]

"Who Framed Roger Rabbit" is still one of my favorite films, too. Hard to believe that it has been twenty years, though! Definitely a milestone in
animation history.

:bugs2: :mickey: :daffy: :donald: :tweety: :ysam: :ham: :droopy: :woody: :betty:

[Acme]

:mickey: :woody: :bugs2: Happy B-day to a wonderful film.

[Stanislav]

This is one of my all time favourites! Here is a classic scene where donald shouts ouy a racist comment at Daffy http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=1b_88kWrA70

Urban legend, per Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/donald.asp

[Brandon Panther]

Great classic film. The scene with Mickey and Bugs skydiving has always been one of my favorite scenes.

BTW, am I the only guy who doesn't find Jessica Rabbit attractive in the least?

It's a shame Chuck Jones hated this movie. All because he felt the movie treated Bob Hoskins like the star rather than Roger Rabbit (of coarse that was the very flaw of "Back in Action", so I may not be one to talk).

[Bugsy-Kun]

This movie helped me to know the original cartoons characters. It's still a brillant film we seen rarely during the last years. Happy 20th Birthday! ;)

[speedy fast]

I haven't read all of those article scans yet, but the oens that I did read were good. Though I am surprised that in that one review the crossovers between Donald and Daffy and Bugs and Mickey didn't seem to have been praised. And I noticed that in the review when listing all classic cartoon characetrs known to appear in the movie it forgot to include Bugs Bunny (I noticed that Speedy Gonzales was mentioned... where did he appear?)

[Brandon Panther]

(I noticed that Speedy Gonzales was mentioned... where did he appear?)
He appears at the very end. I think he can be seen after Eddie kisses Roger. He's more noticeable in the widescreen version.

[zavkram]

This is one of my all time favourites! Here is a classic scene where donald shouts ouy a racist comment at Daffy http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=1b_88kWrA70

This is actually a myth... I know it sounds very much like Donald is dropping the N-bomb, but in reality he isn't. If you go over to the "Snopes" website and click on the links for Disney films, you can see that this misconception has been refuted.

I don't recall the exact URL for this website, but if you simply type in "Disney Snopes" in your browser's search bar you should get a link to the site.

The Disney page on that site lists every myth and rumor surrounding the Disney films. Take, for example, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs... there is a myth circulating that the names of the Seven Dwarfs actually represent the seven stages of cocaine addiction.

On the subject of Who Framed Roger Rabbit, it has also been said that a part of Jessica Rabbit's anatomy is revealed when she and Eddie Valiant are thrown from Benny the Cab near the outskirts of Toon Town. This has also been proven to be false.

[zavkram]

It's a shame Chuck Jones hated this movie. All because he felt the movie treated Bob Hoskins like the star rather than Roger Rabbit...

I had never heard that Jones hated the movie, do you know which interview or correspondence specifically mentions this?

I've always been under the impression that Eddie Valiant was the main protagonist in the movie. After all, he is the one who was initially hired to investigate Jessica Rabbit's alleged indiscretions. Valiant was the one with the drinking problem and the tortured past. He was also the one who ultimately did battle with Judge Doom and his cronies while Roger and Jessica were tied up and hung on a hook. True, Roger did have a few shining moments in the film, but he really seemed more of a second banana to Valiant.

[Studio Toledo]

This summer marks the 20th anniversary of the legendary film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit". This thread is for celebrating and remembering this seminal film. To start, here's a series of old magazines articles about the making of the film: http://johnpannozzi.blogspot.com/2008/07/20-years-of-who-framed-roger-rabbit.html
It was probably 20 years ago I remember seeing this at the AMC Franklin Mall 6 in my town and I wanted to see it again despite my mom probably couldn't afford more than the matinee price itself that day to take me there (back then we normally went to "dollar theatres" for our moviegoing experiences)..

[Fibber Fox]

This was the last movie I ever saw in a theatre.

It was a real disappointment. Gratituitous cameos. A completely annoying title character I couldn't give a rat's ass about. And it popularised the contraction "toon." Three strikes.

I'd rather watch the charmingly inept Van Beuren cartoons.

F. Fox.

[Studio Toledo]

This was the last movie I ever saw in a theatre.
Not to sound so "OMG" about it, but that's what I'm feeling from that line! I need to do the same too since I've only managed to see at least one or two movies a year. Going to movies has been drained from me in recent years over dissatisfied interests and the mass amalgamation of all the theaters under one entity in town.

It was a real disappointment. Gratituitous cameos. A completely annoying title character I couldn't give a rat's ass about. And it popularised the contraction "toon." Three strikes.Too bad I was a tad young to understand the complications one movie could do. It just seem so innocent then.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Add me to the chorus of people who liked the movie Roger Rabbit. I was lucky enough to see it at the Cinerama Dome in Los Angeles, once. (Although I first saw it at a crappy cineplex in my hometown first.) It was nice to hear the adults in the theater laughing at an animated cartoon again.

First, it's an amazing technical acheivement, and the animation blends with the live action seemlessly. Before it became a nauseating trend, the shadows and highlights on the animated cartoon characters were shocking to see. It made them seem like they belonged in the real world. Bob Hoskins really seems like he is interacting with the characters. Think how difficult it must have been, since he was alone on the set reacting to characters that weren't there. Plus he had to put on an American accent. (He's British, and so pronounces English correctly.)

I like the self-referential humor and nostalgia in the film. The filmmakers really did their homework. The number of cameos from not only the famous cartoon characters, but also the forgotten, shows that they knew their animation history. The cartoon in the beginning is great and really captures the feeling of a Tex Avery cartoon. I know Zemeckis wanted the Looney Tunes characters to be animated in the style of a Clampett cartoon, but this area is where I feel the film doesn't measure up. The animation is fine, but it's not as exaggerated as Gould or Scribner would have done.

I prefer the uncensored version of the film. Even though only a few frames have been altered in the DVD, it still upsets me, since the original film was aimed at adults.

[PudgieDParrot]

First, it's an amazing technical acheivement, and the animation blends with the live action seemlessly. Before it became a nauseating trend, the shadows and highlights on the animated cartoon characters were shocking to see. It made them seem like they belonged in the real world. Bob Hoskins really seems like he is interacting with the characters. Think how difficult it must have been, since he was alone on the set reacting to characters that weren't there. Plus he had to put on an American accent. (He's British, and so pronounces English correctly.)

Its interesting that this was all done before digital compositing was commonplace in cinema special-effects. Howard Beckerman's Animation: The Whole Story explains the BASIC optical process (live action backplate + Colour Animation Performance + High Contrast Matte Positive (Male Matte) + High Con Matte Negative (Female Matte)) and when combined with additional shadow and tone mattes, diffusers for focus pulls, double-exposures, etc., I can ALMOST figure out the basic composition of every shot.

What also intrigued me was the use of robotic arms, later to have animation superimposed over them, to handle props on the set, and the use of rubber dolls as "stand-ins" when rehearsing (this was also filmed for super-accurate size, perspective/forshortening and lighting information).

Since watching WFRR, I have NEVER looked at an animation/live-action hybrid film the same way again. For example, despite it only haveing one-sixteenth the budget of WFRR, I have frowned upon the pre-WFRR production standards of Cartoon Network's Out of Jimmy's Head, such as the "pasted" look of the Appleday toons (no highlights, shading OR EVEN cast shadows and reflections!) and the static camera in the live shots.

I prefer the uncensored version of the film. Even though only a few frames have been altered in the DVD, it still upsets me, since the original film was aimed at adults.

Is this what I think it is? Here is a quote from the Official US Playstation Magazine's review of the Vista series DVD:

..."A scene in Roger has Jessica allegedly 'going commando.' According to the studio, it's an ink anomaly."

P. S.: Some of you on the net have been puzzled as to why Goofy Gymnastics (1949) was used in the theatre sequence, as the events in the movie predate this cartoon by two years. TO END THE CONFUSION: According to the audio commentary on the Vista series DVD, GG was the ONLY Disney cartoon the filmmakers found that had any wacky extreme physical violence. Of course, they were looking for something that had the caliber of the Warner toons, but settled on Disney to avoid royalties (as if they were overbudget on this mass cartoon crossover).

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Is this what I think it is? Here is a quote from the Official US Playstation Magazine's review of the Vista series DVD:
Two scenes were altered. In one, Baby Herman passes under a script girl on the movie set and, as he walks under her legs, he gooses her. He has a devilish expression on his face as his finger reaches up under her skirt. In the other, Jessica Rabbit is thrown from Bennie the cab after the cab gets into an auto accident. Jessica's skirt flies up as she is thrown, although nothing naughty is visible. This scene was the one that the rumors were spread about, and it was reanimated for the DVD release so that her skirt is now modestly covering her nether regions.

[zavkram]

Urban legend, per Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/donald.asp

Oops! Sorry there, Stanislav... you're obviously quicker on the draw than I am when it comes to submitting posts here. :o You must have just posted your reply while I was still editing mine.

Anyway, thanks for providing the link. :)

[Stanislav]

I loved the movie when it first came out for a number of reasons. It was great to see all those classic characters in their cameos, especially Donald vs. Daffy. I also knew at the time that Mel Blanc was probably not long for this world, and it was nice to hear his voice(s) again, even if only for a few lines. The integration of animation and live action was almost flawless -- usually, there are moments when it just doesn't "flow" right in this sort of hybrid, but here it was entirely believable. Bob Hoskins was the perfect stereotypical 1940's hard-boiled private eye. Roger was a decent throwback character, and I liked Charles Fleischer's voice. (And how neat that someone named "Fleischer," even if no relation, was involved.) Plus, any movie with Christopher Lloyd playing a scenery-chewing over-the-top villain is worth seeing. :D

As for Hoskins and his accent, he had played American characters before, so he was well trained in doing U.S.-centric accents. Nowadays, it's even more of a must for British and Aussie actors -- look how many of them have played American characters in films and TV. (Think Hugh Laurie on "House" -- you would never in a million years think that he's actually a Brit.) I understand that there is quite a brisk and lucrative business in teaching the Queen's subjects how to speak like a Yank so that actors will have more versatility and more available Hollywood roles.

[Brandon Panther]

BTW, this film marks the first time Joe Alaskey voiced any of the Looney Tunes. Mel was unable to recreate Yosemite Sam's voice, so Alaskey stepped in. I think I remember reading somewhere in which Alaskey said how intimidated he was about stepping in for Mel, and it was Mel himself who encouraged him to take it on.

[PudgieDParrot]

Two scenes were altered. In one, Baby Herman passes under a script girl on the movie set and, as he walks under her legs, he gooses her. He has a devilish expression on his face as his finger reaches up under her skirt. In the other, Jessica Rabbit is thrown from Bennie the cab after the cab gets into an auto accident. Jessica's skirt flies up as she is thrown, although nothing naughty is visible. This scene was the one that the rumors were spread about, and it was reanimated for the DVD release so that her skirt is now modestly covering her nether regions.

Thanks for clarifying that, J. J.! Here's another interesting (and rather humourous) behind-the scenes story: Because most of the toon voices were recorded live on the set during the shoot (which puzzles me as to how they pitch-adjusted Mel's voices for Daffy and Porky in the usual manner in the end...), Charile Fleischer (voice of Roger) INSISTED that the wardrobe department make a Roger Rabbit costume for him (complete with a hat with ears!), and this often confused others who thought Charlie was going to be on camera and critisized his outfit! Here's a quote from Lou Hirsch (voice of Baby Herman):

"They made Roger's clothes up to fit Charlie; and Charlie, to be in character, wore Roger's clothes. And I said to myself, 'If they think I'm wearing a diaper, the've got another coming, because there's NO WAY I'm going to walk to the set with a diaper on!'."

[Greg Method]

BTW, this film marks the first time Joe Alaskey voiced any of the Looney Tunes. Mel was unable to recreate Yosemite Sam's voice, so Alaskey stepped in. I think I remember reading somewhere in which Alaskey said how intimidated he was about stepping in for Mel, and it was Mel himself who encouraged him to take it on.
And just to add to this, that's still Mel screaming as Sam is first being propelled out of Toon Town.

[Vdubdavid]

Regarding the use of "Goofy Gymnastics" if the filmmakers were looking for a wild Goofy cartoon, why didn't they use "Hockey Homicide"? The climax of that short was one of Disney's craziest, and it would have fit with the setting as well.

[thornhill]

It's a disaster, but at least it's not CGI. (Though it started the use of overshadowing that I really despise.)

[ThePeterNetwork]

In the other, Jessica Rabbit is thrown from Bennie the cab after the cab gets into an auto accident. Jessica's skirt flies up as she is thrown, although nothing naughty is visible. This scene was the one that the rumors were spread about, and it was reanimated for the DVD release so that her skirt is now modestly covering her nether regions.
Hence the reason why I have put off purchasing the DVD. I want my original uncut films to STAY uncut! :ysam:

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Hence the reason why I have put off purchasing the DVD. I want my original uncut films to STAY uncut! :ysam:
I haven't bought it either. I still have my laserdisc copy.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

It's a shame Chuck Jones hated this movie. All because he felt the movie treated Bob Hoskins like the star rather than Roger Rabbit (of coarse that was the very flaw of "Back in Action", so I may not be one to talk).
In an interview with Tom Shales in 1989 Chuck Jones complained that he thought Roger Rabbit was an unpleasant character, and too frenetic. He also disagreed with director Robert Zemeckis's choice of wanting to make the picture like a Clampett cartoon.

[speedy fast]

On that third article on the blog, I can't get the last page to load whenever I click it. Is anybody else having this problem?

I am surprised by how many pages all these articles are. Especially the review of the movie. Have movie reviews gotten shorter over the years? Most newspaper or magazine reviews I see of movies are usually one page or less, or part appears in a section on one page, and the review continues in a section on another page. Entertainment Weekly often has multi-page articles on things, but I don't think they are that many pages.

[thornhill]

Frank Thomas didn't think too highly of the animation either.

[Nick]

Frank Thomas didn't think too highly of the animation either. Nor did Virgil Ross, he said something to the effect of "There was too much stuff going on at once".

[Larry T]

I was in animation college when this movie came out. At the time, I thought it was the best homage to classic cartoon characters hit the screens ever... I still think it deserves to be ranked amongst the best animated movies ever. Remember, that when this movie was shown in theaters, we weren't being spoiled with DVD sets of restored cartoons like we are now. If you saw any of the classic animation at all on TV, you were lucky. This made the movie way more enjoyable-- because people only knew of certain characters from nostalgic memory or film retrospectives... I was proud to be dorky enough to recognize EVERY character / cameo in that movie :D .

This movie also showed that the writers, directors, artists did their homework as the most memorable versions of all the characters were used. Myself, of course, I was a little bit disappointed we only saw several pivotal characters standing in the crowd at the end of the film- namely Woody Woodpecker, Foghorn Leghorn, and Sylvester. I was also disappointed that Popeye wasn't in the movie either... and wondered at the time why Betty was used but Popeye couldn't be (I know the reason now, though). Interesting side note- when Betty came onscreen for the first time, and I recognized Mae Questal's voice and noticed Betty was still in B&W, the audience cheered and I cried a little tear :p ... They knew who Betty Boop was, and loved the representation of her from her 'glory' days :betty: .

I have to admit Hoskins looked a little clumsy trying to seem cartoony near the end when he was singing the "Merry Go Round Broke Down"... but I still stand to my opinion that anytime you pit live-action actors against classical animated characters, they simply cannot compete.... this goes double for Steve Martin, and quadruple for Jenna Elfman in "Back In Action".

I can also recall being truly frightened by Christopher Llyod's scene where he freaks out near the end- that sequence was extremely unnerving and I recall several children start crying in the theatre during that scene, especially when his eyes started flashing and turning into all these bizarre instruments. But to evoke such a reaction means that the elements were all highly effective.

"For a good time call Allyson Wunderland.. the best is yet to be" :D

[Treadwell]

most of the toon voices were recorded live on the set during the shoot

Not really. :tweety:

Fleischer was on set to provide off-camera lines for the actors to react to, but he, and all the other voice artists, recorded their final lines in recording studios in the usual way.

I have a CBS "making of" documentary called "Roger Rabbit and the Secrets of Toon Town" that aired that summer, and there is footage of Questel and Blanc in the audio booth (separately). When comparing this footage with the film, it is apparent that his Daffy and her Boop were pitched up.

[thornhill]

They wanted to use Felix, Tom & Jerry, and Heckle & Jeckle originally too, but they couldn't clear the rights.

Chuck Jones did a bunch of freelance story work on it, and none of it made it into the film. (Essentially "Show Biz Bugs" with Donald serving as Bugs...)

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Chuck Jones did a bunch of freelance story work on it, and none of it made it into the film. (Essentially "Show Biz Bugs" with Donald serving as Bugs...)
I think it's a good thing the filmmakers didn't use Chuck Jones's ideas for the Donald/Daffy duel. By that point in his career, Jones's conceptions of the Looney Tunes characters had radically changed from their established personalities of the 40's. It would have been out of place to have the late 50's Daffy in the movie. (Of course, I don't know what Jones's ideas were. I'm just making an assumtion based on Jones's later work what it would have been like.)

[John Pannozzi]

From the book "Chuck Jones Conversations" by Maureen Furniss, here are some of Chuck's thoughts on WFRR:
"I call it a successful Tron. You remember Tron? Well that was another tour de force of technical stuff. Roger Rabbit, after all the wonders of putting live action and animation together, presented the case for a very unpleasant character."

"Zemeckis believes that the Clampett pictures were the best ever done at Warner Bros., so he demanded that this be done that way, and Richard Williams-to his shame, because he's a marvelous animator-decided he was Bob Zemeckis's pencil."

"I was supposed to be in on it too, at beginning, and Dick and I started out with a storyboard and a lot of material with Donald and Daffy Duck playing dual pianos. I thought that was a very funny idea, and an historic idea, but they ended up with something horrible. No, I didn't like it."

"And I figured out that that [the half of the $50 million budget for Roger Rabbit that was spent on animation] was about twice as much money as it cost to make all of the Warner cartoons. All of them! Now, which would you rather own-all the Warner cartoons or Roger Rabbit"

Interestingly, according to the trivia subtitles on the WFRR DVD, it was Chuck who convinced Dick (Williams) to work on Roger Rabbit in the first place. What irony!

Also, this explains the Chuck Jones sketches of Donald Duck on said DVD.

[Brandon Panther]

Chuck's idea of the Donald/Daffy piano scene probably just consisted of them making cultural/literal references and not much else.

That may have been an unfair comment.

Also, on the DVD, Zemeckis mentions he wanted the cartoons to be more like Tex Avery. No mention of Bob Clampett.

[Treadwell]

...and in that TV special I mentioned, Zemekis says they were going for "that Tex Avery, stick of dynamite down your pants" kind of animation, so the Clampett mention is curious.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Also, on the DVD, Zemeckis mentions he wanted the cartoons to be more like Tex Avery. No mention of Bob Clampett.
I think Jones meant that Zemeckis wanted more of a Clampett feel specifically in regards to the Looney Tunes characters. I could have sworn Zemeckis mentioned that in an old interview in some magazine, maybe Cinefex? (http://www.cinefex.com/backissues/issue35.html)

[thornhill]

Who cares what Chuck Jones thought about it. It's not like his opinion had any clout in this case. A lot of us figured out we didn't like it without his help too. Dick Williams himself was upset over the whole thing too, because that style of animation is self-admittedly not his thing.

The piano duel is a really good scene though, mostly animated by Mark Kausler.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Dick Williams himself was upset over the whole thing too, because that style of animation is self-admittedly not his thing.
In his book on animation, "The Animator's Survival Kit", Richard Williams constantly puts down what he derisively calls "stretchy squashy" animation -- meaning the exaggerated animation used in the 40's. He preferred the later dull and literal Disney stuff, like Jungle Book. Williams's own animation is mechanically precise, but it's still mechanical. Odd that he would end up supervising the type of animation he didn't care for. The Lord works in mysterious ways, sometimes.

[Brandon Panther]

Williams not liking Roger Rabbit is news to me. I guess that would explain why he wasn't on the DVD commentary. I actually kinda wish they had at least ONE animator commenting with the filmmakers.

While Roger Rabbit seems very popular with audiences, it seems most of the people who made it don't have much to say about it. I think even producer Don Hahn said he doesn't care much for the movie, and Ken Ralston (special effects) on the DVD hints that the only good thing that came out of the film was the friendships that were made.

I guess maybe it's because making the film was so stressful to make, and the filmmakers would just as well forget about it.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Well, I don't know that Williams dislikes the movie Roger Rabbit, but rather that he felt that Tex Avery's style of animation wasn't his cup of tea. He seems to think that one can't get characters with depth using that style.

As for the other individuals who worked on the film, and may have misgivings about it, that's not too uncommon in the film industry. Everybody has a vision of what the finished film should be, but often compromises have to be made and the final product isn't always what was originally envisioned. Arduous schedules also take their toll on the crew.

I'm sure these problems are what makes Zemeckis look for an easier way out with the current motion capture technology. He can now direct movies from a distance, and choose his camera set-ups after the action is done. He's not tied down to any one creative decision. It may make him feel better, but it promotes laziness. It's often the problems on the set that inspire creative solutions.

[thornhill]

The only things Zemeckis did of any value was the Back to the Future trilogy and Used Cars. Fun escapist movies that are great on their own terms.

The mo-cap stuff is horrid, and Forrest Gump glorifies stupidity and is monstrously overrated.

[Jack G.]

Watched WFRR last night.

Technically the feat of getting animated characters in live action like this is amazing.

Roger Rabbit is cartoony with not much character.

Some of the animation doesn't seem too good - look at :ysam: in the final crowd scene.
Is that Bugs appearing on the Maroon lot just after the Hippo launches the man on the bench? Pretty bad if it is.

One cool thing I noticed - at the end when the Toontown crowd rejoyces you see Bugs do his "Carmen Miranda Dance".

What about the two images I've incuded:
Is that the Terrytoon Lion in the crowd?
Is the clown supposed to be anybody specific? It looks a lot like Ko-Ko but not quite.

[PudgieDParrot]

Is the clown supposed to be anybody specific? It looks a lot like Ko-Ko but not quite.

Yup, I assumed it was Koko in there. That same shot also has a cameo by B'rer Bear from Song of the South and the Dodo from Porky in Wackyland/Dough for the Dodo.

Many of the toons in the shot can be ID'd on the "Toontown Confidential" trivia subtitle track on the 2nd (widescreen) disc of the Vista series DVD.

Is that Bugs appearing on the Maroon lot just after the Hippo launches the man on the bench? Pretty bad if it is.


As for Bugs appearing on the Maroon lot, I guessed it was an early Avery/Clampett Bugs. Note the narrow jawline, slender arms, and larger eyes. If you are watching the widescreen version, you will also notice at about a split-second before the cut, there is a cameo by the "Wild Hare" version of Elmer Fudd, at the extreme left of the screen about a second after Bugs makes his entrance.

EDIT: At this time I would also like to discuss the deleted "Hog's Head" sequence. If you have not seen it, here is a verbal description:

After Eddie Valiant (Bob Hoskins) leaves Roger behind with Dolores at the bar, he returns to the Ink & Paint Club, to search for Acme's Will in Jessica's dressing room. However, he is caught once again by the Gorilla Doorman, who punches him in the face. When Valiant wakes up, he is standing face-to-face with Judge Doom, who is joined by the weasels, the gorilla, and Jessica. The Weasels arrest Valiant, who spends the night in Toontown.

The next morning, Valiant comes leaping out of the tunnel with a burlap sack over his head. The weasels follow, carrying paintbrushes and snickering deviously. Valiant removes the sack and---SURPRISE!!!---the Weasels painted a cartoon pig head on him (with a resemblance to the McKimson pigs from Windblown Hare and The Turn-Tale Wolf), and his face is sticking out of the mouth. He feels his head all around, and when he finds out what happened, he runs through the streets screaming loudly. At the office, he showers himself, washing the pig head of with turpentine. Problem Solved!

Here are some facts behind this deleted scene:

-If you have a chance to view the cut of the scene before the toons were added (which can be seen in the deleted scene's intro), you will notice Hoskins is wearing merely a helmet with framework to guide the animators for drawing the pig head, with is fedora resting on top of the framework.
-The shot of the pig's eyes and snout hitting the tub floor and washing down the drain was THE FIRST completed full-colour composite shot in THE ENTIRE FILM!
-You may notice that when Valiant exits the bathroom after Jessica enters his office, he's only wearing a tie AND NO SHIRT. This is because that particular scene was preceded by the "Hog's Head" scene described above, and Valiant just got out of the shower. The toilet flush SFX was added later after the Hog's Head scene was cut. I hope this clarifies everything!

[Treadwell]

While we're on trivia.. :)

There is evidence that there was stronger "language" in the film as originally shot and even edited, that was later toned down.

Example 1: Maroon tells Eddie that he has a lot of "brass". His lips actually say "balls".

2: When Eddie is hiding Roger in his sink, Wise Ass (the lead weasel) tells him he's had enough "bull schtick". If you listen carefully, the line sounds different than the rest of his dialogue. I believe "schtick" was ADRed later, (replacing another "s" word) after the original voice recording session and after animation.

3. Baby Herman's introductory scene was re-edited to remove a shot of him putting a dollar bill in his assistant's cleavage when he tells her to go get him a racing form. In the final film, it's replaced with a cutaway to Eddie. I don't remember if I've actually seen this footage or if I just saw a cel/photo setup from the Sotheby's auction.

Also of note, Wise Ass was renamed "Wise Guy" on toy packaging.

[J. B. Warner]

Is that Bugs appearing on the Maroon lot just after the Hippo launches the man on the bench? Pretty bad if it is.

I think that quick shot of Bugs was inserted into that scene to please Warner Bros. See, WB and Disney had to reach an agreement regarding the use of both Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse in this film - both characters had to have the exact same amount of screen time (and even speak the same number of syllables, believe it or not). In the parachute sequence, I believe Bugs flies up out of frame a split-second before Mickey does, so I suspect that his blink-and-you'll-miss-it cameo on the Maroon Cartoon lot exists only to make up for that missing fraction of a second.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Is the clown supposed to be anybody specific? It looks a lot like Ko-Ko but not quite.
I don't think it's Ko-Ko. For one thing, the clown in that shot has hair on the sides of his head, whereas Ko-Ko is completely bald.

For Fleischer characters other than Betty Boop, I did see Wiffle Piffle walking around on the Maroon Cartoon lot.

[FleischerFan]

I also loved the movie and was willing to overlook its flaws.

For me the major flaw is an overly complicated plot that is not really resolved satifactorily. (After all in reality, they did build freeways all over Los Angeles.) And the ending seemed very choppy.

However, the film revived interest in classic cartoons and we were treated to an avalanche of videos and merchandise. I think in some small way, it also helped lead TV back to funny cartoon shows.

Among the stuff I love:
- The opening cartoon scene. It shows you what an Avery cartoon could have looked like if he had ever gotten a big budget.

- The song sequence that introduces Jessica Rabbit. I think this is one of the best scenes in any Hollywood movie. It also is the first scene where it's obivious that WFRR was taking the marriage of live-action and animation into unchartered territory.

- The afore-mentioned duet between Daffy & Donald. If Jones' idea was to make Donald more like Bugs, that would have been a mistake. Donald's essential nature in cartoons is similar to Daffy's, not Bugs - namely a character whose flaws bring about his downfall.

- The many cameos by any number of classic cartoons characters. I don't think anyone has mentioned the cameo by Droopy that also helped bring that character back from obscurity.


JJ - I took the clown character to be representative of Ko-Ko, albiet slightly off-model.

Although I would prefer the DVD to be uneditted. Not buying it only deprives me of the parts of the film I do like. It is highly unlikely that Disney will release an uncensored version any time soon. Plus, with the DVD you also get the Roger Rabbit animated shorts, which I liked very much (especially "Rollercoaster Rabbit").


A side note - this kind of editting also irritated me on the Pixar short "Knick Knack" where super busty female knick knacks have had radical animated masectomies for their current DVD versions. The outsize proportions of the busts was what made the gags with the snowman funny. However, I still bought the Pixar Sorts DVD figuring it will be some time, if ever, that "Knick Knack" is restored to its original condition. (And yes, I hung on to the VHS release of the short precisely because it was orignally released uncensored.)

[Speedy Boris]

For me the major flaw is an overly complicated plot that is not really resolved satifactorily. (After all in reality, they did build freeways all over Los Angeles.) And the ending seemed very choppy. It is pretty ironic, but I look at it as this L.A. was in an alternate universe where the freeways were never built because they foiled the villain's plans. - The song sequence that introduces Jessica Rabbit. I think this is one of the best scenes in any Hollywood movie. It also is the first scene where it's obivious that WFRR was taking the marriage of live-action and animation into unchartered territory. It goes without saying, but Jessica stole the movie. She was a bit more down to earth (so to speak) than some of the wacky toon characters who were bouncing off the walls. A side note - this kind of editting also irritated me on the Pixar short "Knick Knack" where super busty female knick knacks have had radical animated masectomies for their current DVD versions. They did? Grrr.

[Jack G.]

I don't think it's Ko-Ko. For one thing, the clown in that shot has hair on the sides of his head, whereas Ko-Ko is completely bald.

For Fleischer characters other than Betty Boop, I did see Wiffle Piffle walking around on the Maroon Cartoon lot.Yeah, the hair and no hat made me think it wasn't. But I thought it might be a nod to that character because he's isn't in color.

Wiffle Piffle? Never heard that name. Was that the character with the top hat?

[FleischerFan]

Wiffle Piffle? Never heard that name. Was that the character with the top hat? He's a minor Fleischer character that appeared in a small number of Betty Boop & Screen Song cartoons. Yes, he was the character in the top hat.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

For me the major flaw is an overly complicated plot that is not really resolved satifactorily. (After all in reality, they did build freeways all over Los Angeles.) And the ending seemed very choppy.
I always thought that was meant to be satirical. We all know there's no such thing as Toontown, and that in reality the Red Car trolleys were dismantled and the freeway built. What makes it funny is that it is presented as the idea of a lunatic, whose vision of suburban sprawl he thinks is paradise. Like another member here mentioned, it seem that this Los Angeles is a fantasy version, based on old memories and movies.

There are many jabs at present day Los Angeles in the movie, and I wonder how many people who don't live there caught the jokes. Eddie mentions that L.A. has the best public transportation system in the world. Bennie the Cab brings up the Brooklyn Dodgers, and mentions what bums they are.

There is a strong feeling of nostalgia in the film, not just for past cartoons and movies, but for the way Los Angeles used to be. The musical score matches this; most of it is romantic and melancholy.

JJ - I took the clown character to be representative of Ko-Ko, albiet slightly off-model.

There is a clown near the end of the film that looks identical to the black and white faux Ko-Ko seen near Maroon Cartoons, except this clown is in color. I have no idea who he is, or why he seems to be both in b&w and color in the same film.

Although I would prefer the DVD to be uneditted. Not buying it only deprives me of the parts of the film I do like. It is highly unlikely that Disney will release an uncensored version any time soon. Plus, with the DVD you also get the Roger Rabbit animated shorts, which I liked very much (especially "Rollercoaster Rabbit").


A side note - this kind of editting also irritated me on the Pixar short "Knick Knack" where super busty female knick knacks have had radical animated masectomies for their current DVD versions. The outsize proportions of the busts was what made the gags with the snowman funny. However, I still bought the Pixar Sorts DVD figuring it will be some time, if ever, that "Knick Knack" is restored to its original condition. (And yes, I hung on to the VHS release of the short precisely because it was orignally released uncensored.)
I share your pain, brother. I still have my laserdisc of Toy Story because it has the unaltered version of Knick Knack. I also have a VHS of the Roger Rabbit shorts. If I was to update to the DVD, it would only be because of better picture quality and some extras unavailable on LD, or because I could get it at a cheap price. I realize that only a few frames were censored, but that still bothers me. It was a movie aimed at adults, why try and make it more child friendly?

[speedy fast]

I thought that one of the articles in that blog mentioend Koko being in the movie (unless that was a mistake). I don't know if that character was public domain or not.

I know that Warner bros. was strict in how Bugs Bunny was used, and I think also had soem rules regarding Daffy Duck, but I wonder if Warner bros. charged Disney seperately for each character, or if many were purchased for the price of one (or a simialr deal, like two or three characters at a certain price). I mean, a lot of Looney Tunes characters only appear in the background at the end, without any lines, and I don't think those characters are mentioned in the credits, when listing who each character belongs to. it's weird to think that the producers might have paid individually for each character if not used significantly.

[Jack G.]

There are many jabs at present day Los Angeles in the movie, and I wonder how many people who don't live there caught the jokes. Eddie mentions that L.A. has the best public transportation system in the world. Bennie the Cab brings up the Brooklyn Dodgers, and mentions what bums they are.I thought the "best public trasportation" bit was a joke but wasn't certain because I haven't much knowledge about LA.

I didn't pick up on the the Brooklyn Dodgers bit. I would've laughed if I did.

[PudgieDParrot]

I didn't pick up on the the Brooklyn Dodgers bit. I would've laughed if I did.

I think the point of the "Brooklyn Dodgers" bit is that Benny is referring to the fact that 1947 was (about) the year the Dodgers moved from Brooklyn to LA.

Also, the villain wanting to get rid of the red cars in favour of freeways, I sympathise with that as a rail buff. We had a similar situation a few years ago here in Seattle, only it was "green cars" this time around...

[J. J. Hunsecker]

I thought the "best public trasportation" bit was a joke but wasn't certain because I haven't much knowledge about LA.
At the time Who Framed Roger Rabbit was made, Los Angeles only had bus routes for public transportation. Those buses had to travel on the same congested freeways and city streets that automobiles were on.

The movie is based on a conspiracy (http://www.calendarlive.com/visitor/cl-me-then23mar23,0,7636464.story) that companies like General Motors, Firestone Tires, and Standard Oil bought the trolley lines in order to dismantle them so people would have to use automobiles.

The Red Car trolleys were dismantled in the 50's and early 60's, and replaced by buses. The freeways were built at this time, too. In the film the company that is set to build them is called "Cloverleaf" which is the description for the circular on and off ramp designs (http://encarta.msn.com/media_461564014_761570676_-1_1/los_angeles_freeway.html) seen on the freeways.

The many new automobiles on the road in L.A. in the 50's lead to a rise in smog. (Hence it's mention in What's Opera, Doc? from 1957.) Judge Doom mentions that traffic jams would be a thing of the past once the freeway was built, but congestion only increased. His speech elicits ironic laughs from L.A. audiences. The rise of the auto and the freeways lead to suburban sprawl and ugly stores that catered to cars. Doom mentions these too in glowing terms, that shops such as tire salons and restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food (basically fast food burger joints, which became a dime a dozen in L.A. in the post war years) would rise up. Of this future blight he claims, "My God, it'll be beautiful!"

[Treadwell]

Being an LA local was certainly not necessary to get these jokes. I did. :)

Incidentally, I don't know if the trolley system was the best in the world, but I have read that it served its purpose quite well, so perhaps the statement isn't so much ironic as it is a wry statement about what has been lost.

[JPox]

I just finished re-watching the film again and never gave the ending a second thought. Now that it's fresh in my mind: the teaming of Porky Pig and Tinkerbell is great.
Porky holding onto the iris while Tinkerbell taps his nose with fairy-dust is the ultimate consideration and respect for both companies.
Of course it's mentioned in the commentary that Mike Eisner was bent out of shape of a Warner Bros character ending the film, but the adding of Tink made him happy.

[Jack G.]

Judge Doom mentions that traffic jams would be a thing of the past once the freeway was built, but congestion only increased. His speech elicits ironic laughs from L.A. audiences. The rise of the auto and the freeways lead to suburban sprawl and ugly stores that catered to cars. Doom mentions these too in glowing terms, that shops such as tire salons and restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food (basically fast food burger joints, which became a dime a dozen in L.A. in the post war years) would rise up. Of this future blight he claims, "My God, it'll be beautiful!"Beautiful indeed!
If I was a part of the LA audience, I would've enjoyed this. It's my kind of humor.

[David Gerstein]

I thought that one of the articles in that blog mentioend Koko being in the movie (unless that was a mistake). I don't know if that character was public domain or not.That "Koko" character has all the earmarks of an overhaul done to avoid some kind of rights controversy—like it began as Koko, then lost the hat and gained the Bozo hair when the filmmakers discovered (for some reason) that they couldn't get rights to the character.
The inconsistent color status seems somehow related. I'll bet Koko was originally intended to be BW in all appearances; was granted color to make him less Kokolike, but the painters forgot to add it in one of his scenes.

All of this is conjecture for now, not fact.

[Jack G.]

That "Koko" character has all the earmarks of an overhaul done to avoid some kind of rights controversy—...

All of this is conjecture for now, not fact.Are the rights Ko-Ko and Betty Boop owned by the same person/entitiy?

[J. B. Warner]

I finally bought the Vista Series DVD, after years of admiring this movie but never actually owning it (aside from a worn-out VHS my parents taped off HBO around 1991 or so). And yes, it's still every bit as wonderfully entertaining as I remember it being! Literally every time I watch this movie, I discover some great new detail that I never noticed before.

[Acme]

For people, who have the DVD. What is your favorite short on it? I love "Roller Coaster Rabbit".

[Alf]

I always have wondered why such key characters of the golden age of animation like Tom and Jerry -who, in the time in which WFRR is taking place, 1947, were in their heyday, both creatively and comercially- are missing from this film. I do know that Popeye and Felix the Cat (aside from his `non-official´ cameo on the tunnel which leads to Toontown) do not appear because their owners wanted too much money. However Droopy -another MGM character, by then already owned by Ted Turner before his merging with WB- does appear in the movie (as well as in the three Roger Rabbit shorts). I find strange that :tomcat: & :jerry:, also being MGM stars (and therefore, there should have been no problems in licensing them for the movie from Turner, just like :droopy:), didn´t make it into WFRR. Does anybody know the reason why?

[Jon Cooke]

I always have wondered why such key characters of the golden age of animation like Tom and Jerry -who, in the time in which WFRR is taking place, 1947, were in their heyday, both creatively and comercially- are missing from this film. I do know that Popeye and Felix the Cat (aside from his `non-official´ cameo on the tunnel which leads to Toontown) do not appear because their owners wanted too much money. However Droopy -another MGM character, by then already owned by Ted Turner before his merging with WB- does appear in the movie (as well as in the three Roger Rabbit shorts). I find strange that :tomcat: & :jerry:, also being MGM stars (and therefore, there should have been no problems in licensing them for the movie from Turner, just like :droopy:), didn´t make it into WFRR. Does anybody know the reason why?

I imagine there was some sort of legal or financial reason for T&J being absent from Roger Rabbit (perhaps Turner asked for a larger sum for having T&J in the movie than Droopy?). I recall in the DVD commentary, its mentioned how they couldn't get all the "toons" they wanted into the movie for various reasons (Popeye, Felix, Terrytoons, etc).

[J. B. Warner]

For people, who have the DVD. What is your favorite short on it? I love "Roller Coaster Rabbit".

My personal favorite is the first one, "Tummy Trouble" from 1989. Despite a few anachronisms that take it out of its 1947 setting ("Call 911!", St. Nowhere Hospital, etc.), its gags are well-paced, and there's no obvious use of computer animation like there is in the second and third shorts (the rollercoaster and the logging mill, respectively). And plus, unlike the other two shorts, it has an ending.

"Trail Mix-Up" from 1993 is easily the worst of the bunch, though. What does it say when the live-action segments are even cartoonier than the animated segments? (Roger, Baby Herman, and the bear fly into Mount Rushmore, which screams and explodes, and then Roger pops the Earth like a balloon? Who came up with that?)

[Speedy Boris]

"Trail Mix-Up" from 1993 is easily the worst of the bunch, though. What does it say when the live-action segments are even cartoonier than the animated segments? (Roger, Baby Herman, and the bear fly into Mount Rushmore, which screams and explodes, and then Roger pops the Earth like a balloon? Who came up with that?) I enjoy Trail Mix-Up. It has some good comic timing, like when the giant tree falls on Roger.

[J. J. Hunsecker]

I always have wondered why such key characters of the golden age of animation like Tom and Jerry -who, in the time in which WFRR is taking place, 1947, were in their heyday, both creatively and comercially- are missing from this film. I do know that Popeye and Felix the Cat (aside from his `non-official´ cameo on the tunnel which leads to Toontown) do not appear because their owners wanted too much money. However Droopy -another MGM character, by then already owned by Ted Turner before his merging with WB- does appear in the movie (as well as in the three Roger Rabbit shorts). I find strange that :tomcat: & :jerry:, also being MGM stars (and therefore, there should have been no problems in licensing them for the movie from Turner, just like :droopy:), didn´t make it into WFRR. Does anybody know the reason why?
Another MGM character, Meathead from the Screwy Squirrel cartoons, appears briefly, sniffing around the Maroon Cartoon studios lot. (Right before Wiffle Piffle enters.) The Octopus bartender in the Ink & Paint Club is also from an Tex Avery MGM cartoon, The Half-Pint Pygmy. I guess the Avery MGM characters were cleared.

[speedy fast]

I suppose that Droopy was probably cheaper to get than Tom and Jerry. I didn't really know about Droopy until Tom and Jerry Kids was made (though I think that was also my first exposure to Tom and Jerry). I wonder what made the studio get clearances to use Droopy in the Roger Rabbit shorts. It's great that a classic character was used, but puzzling that they didn't just use a classic Disney-owned character.

[FleischerFan]

I think they didn't use a classic Disney character because they wanted to convey the idea that Toontown was more than just Disney & Warner Brothers characters. The film is already loaded with plenty of Disney characters. Droopy's appearance, IIRC, was greeted by the audience as a welcome surprise (as was Betty Boop's) - which is what I think the filmmakers wanted.

I am no expert on who owns what, but weren't the rights to Tom & Jerry controlled by Hanna-Barbera at the time of WFRR? And wasn't Hanna-Barbera an independent entity at that time (and not part of Turner's holdings)? IIRC, Bill & Joe had purchased the rights to their first big success from M-G-M in a deal reminiscent of the recent Disney deal to reclaim Oswald. If that was true, MGM could license Droopy, but the deal for T&J would have been a separate negotiation.

As far as the Roger shorts go. I like them all, but my favorite is "Rollercoaster Rabbit."

[speedy fast]

I noticed something about Rollercoaster Rabbit. Jessica Rabbit appears tied to the roller coaster tracks, and is saved due to the rolercoaster coming apart and flying over her. However, we never see her get untied, so she could still be in danger (I don't know if there was a spare roller coaster or not). Of course, being a toon, she would probably just get flattened by it, not kiled.

[Philo & Gunge]

I noticed something about Rollercoaster Rabbit. Jessica Rabbit appears tied to the roller coaster tracks, and is saved due to the rolercoaster coming apart and flying over her. However, we never see her get untied, so she could still be in danger (I don't know if there was a spare roller coaster or not). Of course, being a toon, she would probably just get flattened by it, not kiled.
I don't think that cameo is worth thinking about in that way. It's just a gag.

[Mac]

I don't think that cameo is worth thinking about in that way. It's just a gag.

I agree, but going by the logic of the Roger Rabbit characters I would say that Jessica Rabbit is a character who wouldn't go through the indignity of being flattened or cut into pieces. I think each time a cart came her way some quirk would save her from being hurt and, should the danger rise too much, she'd be quite capable of looking after herself and getting out of the situation!

[Larry T]

I agree, but going by the logic of the Roger Rabbit characters I would say that Jessica Rabbit is a character who wouldn't go through the indignity of being flattened or cut into pieces. I think each time a cart came her way some quirk would save her from being hurt and, should the danger rise too much, she'd be quite capable of looking after herself and getting out of the situation!

Jessica is kind of like the Road Runner that way. :) Except way more attractive.

Count me in for my favourite of the Roger Rabbit shorts being "Trail Mix-up". Lots of very funny gags in it, plus the timing and pacing is hi-octane. I also really like the crazy banjo music that plays during the log-rolling scene, I think it very suitably adds to the spastic animation that it accompanies.... plus I always get a big laugh when the deadpan beaver finally does that huge take near the end of the cartoon.

Favourite line: "I almost dropped a log back there." :D

[speedy fast]

According to wikipedia, the producers originally wanted Rocky and Bullwinkle to be in this movie, but they either couldn't get the rights or chose not to include them. Does anybody know if this is true or not? It doens't seem right to me.

But I wish that Rocky and Bullwinkle characters were in the movie. June Foray provided a few voices in the movie (Leena Hyena and one of the weasles), so it's not like Rocky and Natasha (and Nell Fenwick) couldn't have been in the movie. I don't know how the producers would have felt about having replacement voices for Bullwinkle or Boris (which could be a reason to have not included them, aside form rights issues, though they could have jsut been silent in the closing sequence).

Heck, it would have been funny if the movie showed Jessica and Natasha having some sort of rivalry in the movie. Hey, they are both attractive, and both wear very revealing dresses. Perhaps a rivalry could have been done which ultimately led to Natasha becoming a villian. Then again, I don't think any of the cartoon characters created for the movie had any interaction with any of the classic characters (aside from appearign on-screen with them).

Something else I noticed is that while Chuck Jones supposedly didn't like the movie, most of the WB characters to appear in the background and not do anything significant (like talk) are ones that Chuck Jones normally directed. I think the only non-Jones characters to appear without anything to do are Foghorn Leghorn (who had dialogue recorded but cut) and Speedy Gonzales.

[Jon Cooke]

I am no expert on who owns what, but weren't the rights to Tom & Jerry controlled by Hanna-Barbera at the time of WFRR? And wasn't Hanna-Barbera an independent entity at that time (and not part of Turner's holdings)? IIRC, Bill & Joe had purchased the rights to their first big success from M-G-M in a deal reminiscent of the recent Disney deal to reclaim Oswald. If that was true, MGM could license Droopy, but the deal for T&J would have been a separate negotiation.

No, at the time of WFRR, the MGM characters were owned by Turner (who got the rights when he bought the MGM film library). They didn't get lumped in with the Hanna-Barbera characters until Turner bought H-B later on. In fact, in his autobiography Joe Barbera talks about having to track down who owned the rights to T&J and how he pitched the idea of the T&J feature film to Ted Turner himself.

[Larry T]

According to wikipedia, the producers originally wanted Rocky and Bullwinkle to be in this movie, but they either couldn't get the rights or chose not to include them. Does anybody know if this is true or not? It doens't seem right to me.

No, it's probably because Rocky and Bullwinkle would not have existed in context with the rest of this movie, since it supposedly takes place in the 40s.

[Alf]

Speaking of Jay Ward characters, it would have been more logical to have used Crusader Rabbit and Rags the Tiger (the movie takes place in 1947 and they were created just two years laters, marking the debut of made-for-T.V. animation). In fact, the 1989 Roger Rabbit graphic novel published by Marvel, THE RESURECTION OF DOOM, does feature an in-joke about Crusader and Rags!

[J. J. Hunsecker]

According to wikipedia, the producers originally wanted Rocky and Bullwinkle to be in this movie, but they either couldn't get the rights or chose not to include them. Does anybody know if this is true or not? It doens't seem right to me.

Rocky and Bullwinkle are flat designs, and since they are not drawn volumetrically, they wouldn't have worked with all the shadows and tones the filmmakers used on the cartoon characters.

Something else I noticed is that while Chuck Jones supposedly didn't like the movie, most of the WB characters to appear in the background and not do anything significant (like talk) are ones that Chuck Jones normally directed. I think the only non-Jones characters to appear without anything to do are Foghorn Leghorn (who had dialogue recorded but cut) and Speedy Gonzales.
Clampett's Dodo also appears near the Maroon Cartoon studio, in the scene when Eddie crosses the street for the Red Car trolley.