are the Prince Violent titles lost?

[speedy fast]

Long ago, Prince Violent was retitled Prince Varment for television airings. So far it hasn't been released commercially, so I've been wodnerign if the original title sequence is lost, much like many of the original title sequences that were replaced with blue ribbon titles. Could this be why it hasn't been released on video, laserdisc, or DVD yet?

[Jon Cooke]

I just posted the original titles onto the Misce-Looney-ous blog this morning (not sure if that's where you got the idea for this thread or great minds just think alike :tweety: ): http://toolooney.blogspot.com/2008/06/prince-violent-original-titles.html

The original titles aren't lost.

[speedy fast]

I just posted the original titles onto the Misce-Looney-ous blog this morning (not sure if that's where you got the idea for this thread or great minds just think alike :tweety: ): http://toolooney.blogspot.com/2008/06/prince-violent-original-titles.html

The original titles aren't lost.

It is sort of where I got the idea (I'd been meaning to ask this for awhile). Was that from your own copy? I was wondering if they were lost from Warner bros. vaults. But it's good that at least one fan has a copy.

I recall that somebody asked about this on Jerry Beck's Cartoon Research site long ago, and Beck mentioend somethign about considering to include this short the next time he worked on a Looney Tunes video project. I don't know if he quickly changed his mind, or forgot about it, or if Warners refused to release it (though I don't know why Warner would flat-out refuse to release this short), or what.

[Matt the Y]

I've personally always found it completely asinine for Warners to bother changing the title from the original "Prince Violent" to "Prince Varmint" in the first place. And going so far as to mess with the original titles over it to boot. Oh, ooh, how awful! They mentioned the word, "violent", in a Warner Bros. cartoon title. What will the l'il kiddies possibly think????? Puh-leeze. Get some cajones, people! The PC-crowd strikes again!

But, on a positive note, if what Jon is getting at is an indication, at least, it seems that the original titles for this short DO in fact still exist. ;) :)

[Mac]

To be fair, I think the Prince Varmint title card looks great! Was it a specially created piece of art or is it the title card of another Bugs cartoon with the original title scrubbed out and "Prince Varmint" put in it's place? If it was a new piece of art then whoever painted it did a great job!

[Greg Method]

To be fair, I think the Prince Varmint title card looks great! Was it a specially created piece of art or is it the title card of another Bugs cartoon with the original title scrubbed out and "Prince Varmint" put in it's place? If it was a new piece of art then whoever painted it did a great job!
It was newly created artwork for "Merrie Melodies" (a la the ones for "Soup or Sonic," "Spaced Out Bunny," etc.). One can tell because the Bugs design is in the angular '90s style.

Of course, when "Prince Violent" comes to DVD, I would like to see both the 1992 titles and the original CBS title card as extras...I mean, if we are in fact supposedly running out of extras, then let's start throwing in everything but the kitchen sink (CBS title cards, redrawns, etc.).

[Debbie]

It was newly created artwork for "Merrie Melodies" (a la the ones for "Soup or Sonic," "Spaced Out Bunny," etc.). One can tell because the Bugs design is in the angular '90s style.

Of course, when "Prince Violent" comes to DVD, I would like to see both the 1992 titles and the original CBS title card as extras...I mean, if we are in fact supposedly running out of extras, then let's start throwing in everything but the kitchen sink (CBS title cards, redrawns, etc.).


If WHV is considering "The Porky Pig Show" for DVD, as evidenced in their online poll, you may well get the redrawns, if those were what were used in those shows...

[Jon Cooke]

It is sort of where I got the idea (I'd been meaning to ask this for awhile). Was that from your own copy? I was wondering if they were lost from Warner bros. vaults. But it's good that at least one fan has a copy.

The cartoon has been included in syndication packages outside of the USA with its original titles intact. So, the original titles certainly aren't lost.

[Jon Cooke]

If WHV is considering "The Porky Pig Show" for DVD, as evidenced in their online poll, you may well get the redrawns, if those were what were used in those shows...

The original version of The Porky Pig Show that aired on ABC didn't include redrawns. Redrawns were shown when the show was syndicated later on under the title Porky Pig and His Friends (using the same opening/closing theme as the old network Porky show).

[ebrand11]

When it was shown on boomrang a few years back I think it was called "The Porky Pig show" and it had computer colorized ones on it.

[jonmayo15]

I wouldn't mind a few colorized cartoons. Computer-colorized because they're interesting expirements and well done. Redrawns because they make you hate people you don't know.

[PudgieDParrot]

Getting a little tecnical here, but:

The big question is: "Do the original 'Violent' titles exist in the form of a negative?", in recognition that, in a restoration (NOT saying that "Violent" will turn up on an LTGC in the near future), the initial scan is best done when the camera original is used as source material. Surely the faux "Varmint" title card wasn't spliced into the original neg, was it?

[jonmayo15]

Getting a little tecnical here, but:

The big question is: "Do the original 'Violent' titles exist in the form of a negative?", in recognition that, in a restoration (NOT saying that "Violent" will turn up on an LTGC in the near future), the initial scan is best done when the camera original is used as source material. Surely the faux "Varmint" title card wasn't spliced into the original neg, was it?I doubt it was spliced into the original neg. By the way, are the "Varmint" titles online as a video?

[Leviathan]

I don't think any of the Saturday Morning retitilngs involved the original negatives a la the Blue Ribbons.

It sounds like the 70's retitiling was done on 16mm/other film copy of the cartoon used for the Saturday Morning shows, and the 1992 retitling was on video.

[speedy fast]

I've been wanting this cartoon to be released on video for a long time, and then wanted it to be released on a Golden Collection. But now that I think about it, I think I've only wanted it released so that the original title sequence would be avaiable commercially. Des anybody else feel the same way?

[Brandon Panther]

Honestly, I think Prince Violent is one of the weaker Bugs/Sam cartoons. I think the fact that it's titles were changed is the only reason people remember it.

[Bugsmer]

I like to watch it just for the elephant. He adds a lot to the short.

[Boy Wonder]

I like to watch it just for the elephant. He adds a lot to the short.

Agreed. He single-handedly STOLE that short like the dragon in Knighty-Knight Bugs.

[MarkTheShark]

When it was shown on boomrang a few years back I think it was called "The Porky Pig show" and it had computer colorized ones on it.

Yeah, but hasn't Boomerang also shown theatrical Tom & Jerry cartoons under the title The Tom & Jerry/Grape Ape Show?:rolleyes:

See Jon's answer above. (The redrawns didn't even exist yet when The Porky Pig Show was on.)

[Marty26]

Another oddity about the retitled Prince Violent is that, in addition to the new title (Prince Varmint - which actually isn't bad, admittedly) the LT opening and closing were changed. Instead of the standard 1960's Looney Tunes opening/closing like the original did, "Prince Varmint" uses a 1953 (actually, 1954 since most of the cartoons released that year were copyrighted "1953") Blue Ribbon Looney Tunes opening/closing. Possibly stolen from Satan's Waitin', Design For Leaving, or From A To Z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z.

There are a lot of theories surrounding other cartoons that were not re-titled but possibly given new title cards when put into syndication, with the originals more or less lost. The Ducksters and Often An Orphan, for example.

[jonmayo15]

There are a lot of theories surrounding other cartoons that were not re-titled but possibly given new title cards when put into syndication, with the originals more or less lost. The Ducksters and Often An Orphan, for example.Those changes in the titles occured when they were re-issued as blue ribbons, not when they were put into syndication.

[Mark J]

Yeah, but hasn't Boomerang also shown theatrical Tom & Jerry cartoons under the title The Tom & Jerry/Grape Ape Show?:rolleyes:


Why would they do that? I used to watch the Tom & Jerry Grape Ape Show on Saturday mornings in the 70's. It was an all new, made for TV mix of the bizarre Grape Ape (a very large purple ape with a small beagle dog) and made for TV Tom & Jerrys, the really bad ones with the bowtie where they are pals. I think I used to watch that instead of Bugs/Roadrunner that was on CBS at the same time, showing where my screwed up 9 year old brain was at. Why would they throw good theatricals into that mess?

[MarkTheShark]

Why would they do that? I used to watch the Tom & Jerry Grape Ape Show on Saturday mornings in the 70's. It was an all new, made for TV mix of the bizarre Grape Ape (a very large purple ape with a small beagle dog) and made for TV Tom & Jerrys, the really bad ones with the bowtie where they are pals. I think I used to watch that instead of Bugs/Roadrunner that was on CBS at the same time, showing where my screwed up 9 year old brain was at. Why would they throw good theatricals into that mess?

Because whoever programmed that stuff on Boomerang [exasperated screaming mode on] DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE! [exasperated screaming mode off]

Thanks. I feel better.

[larriva9/11]

Because whoever programmed that stuff on Boomerang [exasperated screaming mode on] DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE! [exasperated screaming mode off]

Thanks. I feel better.

Or not so much that, as they think the kids wouldn't know the difference--it's all about the characters, y'know, rather than the cartoons or the quality thereof. Kids are mindless protoplasm, you understand;) (Same reason they mixed the Larrivas in with the Joneses in the Road Runner Show 40+ years ago.)

Incidentally, I recall the mix of original T&Js with the 70s bowtie model as far back as c1980.

[MarkTheShark]

Or not so much that, as they think the kids wouldn't know the difference--it's all about the characters, y'know, rather than the cartoons or the quality thereof. Kids are mindless protoplasm, you understand;) (Same reason they mixed the Larrivas in with the Joneses in the Road Runner Show 40+ years ago.)

Incidentally, I recall the mix of original T&Js with the 70s bowtie model as far back as c1980.

Yeah, they were all syndicated together, because M-G-M retained ownership of the Tom & Jerry cartoons, while Hanna-Barbera owned Grape Ape (and Mumbly). Later on, the 1980 Filmation ones were added to the package too. If not for the eventual mergers of M-G-M, Turner and Hanna-Barbera, the various elements of The Tom & Jerry/Grape Ape Show could not be shown together again.

That syndicated package first showed up in Chicago in 1978. Channel 32 used to (for the first couple of years) introduce it with what I believe was their own edited version of one of the old 1960s CBS Tom & Jerry intros.